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Show HN: Transity – Plain Text Accounting

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Re: Show HN: Transity – Plain Text Accounting

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for this outline. I've been a happy user of Ledger for several months now, but have been stymied about how to model a scenario in which several family members pay me in advance for a bill we collectively owe that's payable in the future, and in which their payments end up in my checking account. I now see that I should have set up the future sum payment as a local, temporary liability, each family member's dep…

You could use virtual accounts for that, posting the received funds to your checking account and also to a virtual account that you eventually balance with the purchase (which would also have both real and virtual postings).

It's easy to confuse "virtual accounts" (imaginary accounts or subaccounts) with "virtual postings" (unbalanced postings), but remember these are different things with different uses. You can post to either kind of account with either kind of posting.

Re: Show HN: Transity – Plain Text Accounting

#122
post #35

Also worth check out http://plaintextaccounting.org/ Personally I don't like the yaml-like syntax. I use beancount myself, and with fava ( https://github.com/beancount/fava ) as the UI.

The Beancount/Fava combo is just fantastic. Awesome plugin system, multi-currency, powerful but simple sql-type query language, extremely well tested, active developers, python.

Re: Show HN: Transity – Plain Text Accounting

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a large use case for simple personal bookkeeping that doesn't require double-entry accounting. Most people have some fixed recurring bills (insurance, rent, subscriptions, etc.), some variable recurring bills (utilities, etc.), standing payments like savings, and monthly spends like groceries. For them (myself included) something that lets you simply input recurring expenses and your income and show a running…

Which means you have to take out money from one account and transfer it into another. Which means that you need to understand that you must debit an expense as it decreases the owners equity credit balance, and then you must understand that it causes a credit on your bank account. If you don't have this, then you won't be able to work out where you spent your $X amount of money.

I don't need to understand any of that for simple personal finance. A transaction with a negative amount with a to and from field is all that I need.

If I see 15 bucks each month going to "Spotify" I don't have to be a CPA to work out that I spend 15 bucks a month for Spotify...

Re: Show HN: Transity – Plain Text Accounting

#124
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey madhadron, you sound like you understand bookkeeping. So I have a quick question. After using Mint (from Intuit) I have everything balanced & tagged and 99% automated. I have reports, ways to export, daily/monthly/yearly totals, breakdowns by types, handle liabilities & debts, i can project net, see assets over time, etc etc. Why wouldn't a business just use mint? After watching vidoes on GnuCash like you recomme…

The way this is formulated it looks like an automated response from an advertisement bot. Also you know that Mint is a proprietary company which keeps and uses your data as it pleases, right? That's a huge difference to any open source tool which allows you to keep your company's data inside your company. If it uses a good file format you can also automate everything if desired. Second, Mint sadly is not supported in…

"The way this is formulated it looks like an automated response from an advertisement bot."

Yes. That is what a happy user sounds like.

Re: Show HN: Transity – Plain Text Accounting

#125
post #106

Basically the problem here is that the author didn't care even a little to understand why accounting is done with a double entry system. Basically what he was trying to do here was a expense and income administrator with tags. That it's just a part of what bookkeeping and accounting is. Nice try. But you can't replace what works and what has been done for reliability and confidence since 1400 at least by the masters…

> You can't replace what works and what has been done for reliability and confidence since 1400 at least by the masters of trade. I am not sure that is true. Isn't the world full of examples of quite the opposite? Especially because it's 1400 years old an because it was created for pen an paper work. We have computers now. e.g. It used to be that companies have a handful of yearly profit/loss accounts and every year…

>I would risk that most accountant don't know their debits and credits

I've worked in accounting and this is just not true. The ledger is stated in debit/credit and all transactions are done in debit/credit. Even if modern accounting software can automate some of it it still requires the accountant to verify the transaction. Hell, most accountants I know even draw up good ol' T-accounts on paper every once in a while to understand the larger and more complex transactions. I'd think you'd be hard pressed to find an accountant that doesn't know their debit and credit. An accountant that doesn't know their debits and credits is like a software developer that only knows Scratch.

Most commercial software doesn't hide debit/credit, and if it does, you should run away as fast as you can. How do you produce the required documentation for your auditor if the software hides debit and credit?

EDIT: To continue a bit.

>It used to be that companies have a handful of yearly profit/loss accounts and every year they "close the books" by transferring all balance to first profit/loss accounts then to equity. The financial year then starts with 0 profit an 0 loss. Afaik nobody does this anymore. Today you just keep all accounts running (don't "close them) and you generate repots by selecting a date range and let the computer calculate profits and losses for that range.

All companies still do this. It's part of the closing entries at the end of the FY. It's not just that the FY starts with 0 profit and 0 loss, but that that is the entire point of the financial statements. A company has three financial statements: the balance sheet, the income statement, and the cash flow statement. For this example, only the income statement and the balance sheet are relevant.

The balance sheet can be seen as a snapshot of a company. It shows what the company owns (assets) divided into short- and long-term assets, as well as how they paid for it (liabilities and equity). The concepts that it balances assets + liabilities + equity = 0 (debit is positive and credit is negative) is the foundation for the balance. The income statement shows a company's results over a given time frame, usually a year. You can consider the balance sheet permanent and the income statement temporary. Consider a company with the following results per 31.12:

    assets: $10.000 (d)
    liabilities: $7 500 (c)    
    equity: $500 (c)
    net revenue: $5.000 (c)
    costs: $3.000 (d)
    profit/loss: $2.000 (c)
It's clear that the entire ledger balances per 31.12 as the sum of debit is equal to the sum of credit accounts. We also see that the company owns $10.000 worth of assets which is mainly paid for through debt, and that they have a profit of $2.000 since the profit is credit. As the income statement is supposed to reflect the performance over a given period and the balance is supposed to balance, the solution is to transfer the profit to equity to record the profit in the (permanent) balance sheet and reset the (temporary) income statement so that they can record their next fiscal year. To do this they record debit profit/loss $2.000 and credit equity $2.000.

It's also not just a matter of recording the entry, which is fairly easy on modern accounting systems, but as it involves the distribution of profit (and touching equity for that matter) it typically needs the signature of the board.

I was an external auditor and when we did the closing entries for our clients we would require the CEO's or chairman's signature on a printed version of the final entries.

> I agree one should not write an accounting system without understanding the full details and history of the domain, but I disagree that 1400 year history proves anything.

Accounting isn't just a field that has had 1400 years to develop methods to solve the problem in the domain. It's a field that has had 1400 years to build regulations and exceptions. It's also a field which requires a lot of individual judgement. Take, for example, VAT. Here in Norway, the actual VAT law text is about 10% of the text in the handy VAT exceptions and judgement calls book we had in the office.

Writing accounting software that is actually useful for an extended period of time is incredibly difficult due to how accounting laws change all the time. Double the effort if you want the software to make tax returns as well. The company that developed the software we used had personal relations with almost all of their customers and would ask for feedback all the time. They probably shipped three versions during the busy season I was there.

I'm admittedly a fan of double-entry bookkeeping as it's conceptually easy (once learned) to map out complex transactions on a piece of paper.

99% of accounting is bog-standard, but that last 1% is complex as all hell. It can't really be ignored either as it can end up costing you or your client a significant amount of money, or even jail time.

I can't really state specifics, but I had a client whose bookkeeper failed to stay up to date on a very specific subset of a rather specific law which ended up costing the client millions in extra taxes. To put it in perspective, they suddenly had back-taxes for more than their company made in a year in revenues. This change was so specific that there wouldn't have been any consequences if they had done it a few weeks earlier. I'm rambling a bit here, but the point is, if you want to write a new type of accounting software, be really sure you know what you're doing.

Re: Show HN: Transity – Plain Text Accounting

#126

Basically the problem here is that the author didn't care even a little to understand why accounting is done with a double entry system. Basically what he was trying to do here was a expense and income administrator with tags. That it's just a part of what bookkeeping and accounting is. Nice try. But you can't replace what works and what has been done for reliability and confidence since 1400 at least by the masters…

> the author didn't care even a little to understand why accounting is done with a double entry system

I don't know where you got this idea from. I got an impression the author knows a few things about accounting.

Re: Show HN: Transity – Plain Text Accounting

#128
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intuit has a history of squeezing their users: https://web.archive.org/web/20080321021644/http://www.infowo... https://www.cnet.com/news/intuit-products-phone-home-more-of... Also, your company's accounting information can be sensitive, and hence you may not want to share that information with Intuit (and whoever they choose to share/sell it to). > Mint on the otherhand, detects the income by scanning all accounts, a…

"Does this mean that you literally hand over your online account log in details to Intuit? Or how is this "scanning" done?" Yes. They use your banks credentials and scan the accounts. It is really awesome. Because you can centralize 20+ accounts into one flow in an automated fashion ++ you don't need a bookkeeper. Ironically, it is actually more secure since I can catch things within minutes. "Also, your company's ac…

> Yes. They use your banks credentials and scan the accounts. It is really awesome.

Interesting. Is your bank OK with you handing out your web bank login to 3rd party?

I found it strange how LinkedIn could trick people into handing over their email password. But the web bank login..!?

Re: Show HN: Transity – Plain Text Accounting

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Does this mean that you literally hand over your online account log in details to Intuit? Or how is this "scanning" done?" Yes. They use your banks credentials and scan the accounts. It is really awesome. Because you can centralize 20+ accounts into one flow in an automated fashion ++ you don't need a bookkeeper. Ironically, it is actually more secure since I can catch things within minutes. "Also, your company's ac…

Worse! Intuit does all my TAX RETURNS. Tax returns are generally a lot less sensitive than bank/credit card statements. Plus they have your plain text credentials too, so if they get hacked someone could transfer money out of your bank account.

And my understanding is generally that your bank will disclaim liability for any "fraud" that occurs due to you intentionally and willingly sharing your credentials.

Re: Show HN: Transity – Plain Text Accounting

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work for Plaid. You can sign up and get a dev token that has sufficient permission to access your own bank accounts. Then you can download your transactions and format them for GNU Ledger or whichever other format you prefer.

Does it work for any bank in any country?

Sorry, we only cover US and Canada right now.
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