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Show HN: An app that helps engineers fight back against pointless meetings

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Re: Show HN: An app that helps engineers fight back against pointless meetings

#111

Post by sdevonoes »

stronglikedan wrote: post #110
sdevonoes wrote: post #109

There was a time when I used to say "What? Another pointless meeting? Oh c'mon that just distracts me from working on features/writing code!". I don't say that anymore. I'm fine with useless meetings because: - it's work time. I don't really mind how I spend my working hours. It's 8h and no more (well, with WFH, it's more like 5h or so, but the point stands) - if the meeting is pointless, I just disconnect. So, the m…

> I don't really mind how I spend my working hours. Must be nice to not have hard deadlines while on salary.

I don't get it. If I don't deliver on time whatever I must deliver because of external reasons (e.g., you're slacking, you don't really communicate well with others, you don't have a solid understanding of some tech concepts, etc.) then sure, it's "my fault" (although, it's more like the "team's fault" because is the whole team the one that delivers stuff, but this is another topic). And I understand if I don't get salary raises/promotions.

But if the reason I don't get a salary raise is because I don't deliver on time because I am working on other company-related stuff (i.e., attending meetings) then either: a) I didn't communicate this clearly to my manager ("hey, I spent a significantly portion of my time on meetings") or b) the company thinks meetings "is not work".

So, if it's "a)", it's my fault; but if it's "b)" then I probably already quit (who wants to work in such a company?)

Re: Show HN: An app that helps engineers fight back against pointless meetings

#112

Post by 908B64B197 »

clairity wrote: post #101
908B64B197 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's the one simple trick they don't want you to know about: email the organizer, making sure to CC everyone, asking for the meeting's agenda.

no, please don't do that. only asking for an agenda while cc'ing everyone is passive aggressive. a more congenial approach would be to provide your understanding of the agenda, perhaps as a question, and then asking if there's more or another alternative: "it sounds like we're going to collectively make a decision on [x]. is there anything else on the agenda for this meeting?" even better if you do this one-to-one an…

> a more congenial approach would be to provide your understanding of the agenda

That shifts works to me.

If someone sends a meeting invite without an agenda, either I trust them and we already agreed this was worth spending time on or they should learn to write an agenda.

Re: Show HN: An app that helps engineers fight back against pointless meetings

#113

Post by atonse »

f6v wrote: post #69
ryanSrich wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we should make a distinction here. Client, prospect and customer meetings are absolutely necessary and you should prioritize those no matter what. Internal time wasting meetings are the pinnacle of the art of not working and should be avoided at all costs.

> Internal time wasting meetings are the pinnacle of the art of not working and should be avoided at all costs. I’m yet to experience a 100% black-and-white phenomenon in the Universe. We’re all not equal in how we see the work and how we process the information. That’s why we need to compromise and try to underhand why meetings are scheduled. Ok, suppose programmers are 100% exempt from the internal meetings. Engine…

The only black and white regarding this I’ve seen are status meetings where most questions could’ve been answered in a discussion or email thread.

And the counter point, is where we wasted days in an email discussion thread when a 30 min meeting would’ve been as effective.

Re: Show HN: An app that helps engineers fight back against pointless meetings

#114

Post by phgn »

kyawzazaw wrote: post #89
phgn wrote: post #13

Looks interesting! You may want to consider renaming the tool, it's overlapping with getclockwise.com, which is quite popular.

How popular is it? Considering working there.

I only know anecdotally that we were rolling it out to engineering at Uber, and I see it at my current company as well. It has good selling points for management to "improve productivity", and usage spreads easily once someone in a team starts using it.

Re: Show HN: An app that helps engineers fight back against pointless meetings

#115

Post by reificator »

avs733 wrote: post #43
ryandrake wrote: post #25

This always seems to be such a controversial view here, but if you think a meeting is pointless and that you have nothing to gain from it or contribute to it, just don't go. We're all grown-ups at work, and are ultimately responsible for our own productivity. Be prepared to articulate exactly why you feel some other use of your time is more appropriate, in case someone asks, but nobody is holding a gun to your head t…

It can also be useful to, perhaps, engage in either a passive or active interrogation of what the value and purpose of a meeting is in the eyes of others. I agree there are some useless meetings. I would, however, classify more meetings as unproductive but important. That represents a different problem and necesitates a different solution but seems to beguile engineers. Does an unproductive meeting need to be cancell…

> If we reduce everything to that metric of observability then coders should be paid in lines of code written not thinking done.

If this happens I'll do well. Just don't ask how I "write" the code that gets submitted.

Re: Show HN: An app that helps engineers fight back against pointless meetings

#116

Post by prepend »

These kinds of snarky calculators actually make meetings worse, I think.

There’s lots of people who I think enjoy meetings because it demonstrates power. Calculating how much their meeting costs will make this worse because it’s easier to see how powerful a meeting is.

Separately, I don’t think that time consumed as a cost is unknown to participants so quantifying it doesn’t help much. Kind of like how calories on the Burger King menu doesn’t result in fewer double whoppers with cheese ordered.

To help prevent pointless meetings, what I do is reject meetings that don’t have agendas or clear objectives. I explicitly decline and say “I don’t know what this is for” and sometimes I find out what the reason is. Sometimes it changes my mind, but usually blank invites mean not so great meetings.

And then, I try to never schedule meetings unless there’s no other solution. And I send simple agendas, and if necessary, homework with a time estimate needed to process (eg, read this background before we meet). Sometimes if I’m feeling froggy, I’ll actually mention something about how it’s a 30 minute meeting with the context and background done beforehand or a 60 minute meeting if we want to walk through everything together.

I’m not sure how objectively valuable this is to the org, but it makes me feel better. And I’ve had multiple people comment that they appreciate it and use my reputation and approach in deciding whether to attend in my meetings.

Re: Show HN: An app that helps engineers fight back against pointless meetings

#117

Post by 1123581321 »

mindtricks wrote: post #42
ryandrake wrote: post #25

This always seems to be such a controversial view here, but if you think a meeting is pointless and that you have nothing to gain from it or contribute to it, just don't go. We're all grown-ups at work, and are ultimately responsible for our own productivity. Be prepared to articulate exactly why you feel some other use of your time is more appropriate, in case someone asks, but nobody is holding a gun to your head t…

To add to that, if you default to the position that any meeting is pointless, you'll find yourself continually frustrated and likely wrong at times. Talk to your manager about time management and let them know where you think your time is best served. They may agree and give you the cover you need to duck out, they might revamp some meetings to be more effective, or they may just give you the context you need to have…

Or they may become offended, or cut you out of communications, or tell you their misunderstandings as if they’re true…

Many organizations cannot handle discussing or even innocently questioning their communication problems openly.

I would never use this calculator, for the record. There are ways to redeem the time, including trying as much as possible to make the bad meeting worthwhile.

Re: Show HN: An app that helps engineers fight back against pointless meetings

#118

Post by junga »

anontwitteruser wrote: post #72
citilife wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a manager, I encourage my team to just say "no" where ever possible. I also always push to halve the times of meetings I'm in (and typically that works well). - We have 10 min standup every day - We have 30 min sprint planning every week - We have 30 min retro every week Beyond that we will talk as necessary between people. In reality pushing back is pretty effective at determining if a meeting is important. If th…

> - We have 10 min standup every day At my workplace we now have 90 minute daily standups because it was perceived the employees are not doing enough quick enough. It has obliterated any hope of progression in a single work day without overtime (unpaid!) since these typically will run over by a long margin, eating up what little time we had for actual development.

Wow, 90 minutes. That‘s mind boggling. How many people do attend these daily meetings? I guess there‘s only a few persons using most of the time for their talking?

Re: Show HN: An app that helps engineers fight back against pointless meetings

#119

Post by anontwitteruser »

junga wrote: post #118
anontwitteruser wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> - We have 10 min standup every day At my workplace we now have 90 minute daily standups because it was perceived the employees are not doing enough quick enough. It has obliterated any hope of progression in a single work day without overtime (unpaid!) since these typically will run over by a long margin, eating up what little time we had for actual development.

Wow, 90 minutes. That‘s mind boggling. How many people do attend these daily meetings? I guess there‘s only a few persons using most of the time for their talking?

The entire team...
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