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Show HN: GentleOS – A pair of hobby OSes for vintage 32-bit and 16-bit PCs

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Re: Show HN: GentleOS – A pair of hobby OSes for vintage 32-bit and 16-bit PCs

#101

Post by rasz »

luke8086 wrote: post #83
rasz wrote: post #60

Am I crazy or are the "photos" generated? I did have T1800 and it never looked like this. It had a very early very bad grayscale LCD wiht fiddly contrast control, not a perfect crisp vibrant OLED like this page shows. example how one looks like irl https://allegrolokalnie.pl/oferta/laptop-toshiba-t1800 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxIc_UVKxvc

All the photos are real, though it took me *lots* of time to get them somewhat right. The display on T1800 is indeed "challenging". What helped was: - Letting it warm for a while - Putting windows in the right places, because each one generates its own artifacts - Setting background to dark with the white pattern - Fiddling with the contrast knob and matching it with the right viewing angle - Using 2x zoom To be fair…

First photo is what I expected and remember. I still dont know how you managed to arrive at the third one, I call witchcraft! :)

Re: Show HN: GentleOS – A pair of hobby OSes for vintage 32-bit and 16-bit PCs

#103

Post by haspok »

sixothree wrote: post #88
lproven wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's quite a feat to fit this into 4 MB on a 386. I had 2 different Librex 386SX laptops, with 4MB of RAM, on long-term loan from work around 1992. One was quite chunky, the 2nd was a slimline thing with an off-centre hinge. I ran OS/2 2.0 on them both. So I could run multiple DOS apps, and a WinOS2 VM containing Windows 3.0, meaning I could run Win16 apps as well. And native OS/2 apps, although I didn't have many.…

For you to downvote my small comment, and then go on to lecture me about things you have barely any grasp or memory of, is just astounding to me. I currently own at least 5 computers with 4 MB of RAM, part of a collection of computers that is too large to count (hence the project on github). A 386 with 4MB was the bare minimum to run Windows 3.11, which is considered the first mainstream GUI for PCs. Technically they…

Windows 3.1 was probably the first mainstream version of Windows, with significantly less memory requirements (and it ran no problem on a 286 IIRC). Windows 3.11 came almost 1.5 years later (despite the minor version bump), and mostly added networking, which _was_ memory hungry, but back then, people were happily running their computers isolated, especially at home.

I guess my point is, 4MB was really a lot of memory around 1992, and fitting a windowing environment in 640K was more the norm, and not an especially outstanding feat. Just think about GEOS and how it ran on the C64... or the Amiga (with a preemptive OS running on 256KB), or the Atari ST...

Re: Show HN: GentleOS – A pair of hobby OSes for vintage 32-bit and 16-bit PCs

#104

Post by xtiansimon »

darkwater wrote: post #21
Aldipower wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, you poop everywhere you go. Interesting.

I don't really understand GP's message. User's comment history seems pretty normal, why would they drop a random IG link here? Wrong article?

> “User's comment history seems pretty normal”

Wow. I’ve been investigated.

If you don’t understand my comment, ok. It was offered with zero comment. What’s to understand?

If you’re saying you don’t understand the _juxtaposition_ of a fashion designer talking about trends in fashion, and how that language compares to the language surrounding trends in OS GUI. Well, then you can take the whole idea with the same regard I gave in making it. Do you see? It’s just an _idea_, and you’re welcome to reject it (-4 and counting).

Re: Show HN: GentleOS – A pair of hobby OSes for vintage 32-bit and 16-bit PCs

#105

Post by NoGravitas »

sixothree wrote: post #88
lproven wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's quite a feat to fit this into 4 MB on a 386. I had 2 different Librex 386SX laptops, with 4MB of RAM, on long-term loan from work around 1992. One was quite chunky, the 2nd was a slimline thing with an off-centre hinge. I ran OS/2 2.0 on them both. So I could run multiple DOS apps, and a WinOS2 VM containing Windows 3.0, meaning I could run Win16 apps as well. And native OS/2 apps, although I didn't have many.…

For you to downvote my small comment, and then go on to lecture me about things you have barely any grasp or memory of, is just astounding to me. I currently own at least 5 computers with 4 MB of RAM, part of a collection of computers that is too large to count (hence the project on github). A 386 with 4MB was the bare minimum to run Windows 3.11, which is considered the first mainstream GUI for PCs. Technically they…

I used a 386sx with 4MB of RAM with OS/2 2.1. It was usable for a lot of things. I certainly used word processors, terminal emulators, and casual games in that config. It did swap something terrible if you pushed it beyond its pretty narrow limits, and unlike Windows 3.1, it had enough promise to encourage you to do so. I found it more useful than Windows 3.1 on the same hardware, because it could reliably run a serial modem download in the background while I did word processing.

With 8MB, it was still pretty easy to send it into swap storms, but the range of what I could multitask was greater. Eventually (very late) I replaced it with a 486 with 16MB, and OS/2 absolutely flew on it. Had lots of headroom beyond what I actually used at the time.

Re: Show HN: GentleOS – A pair of hobby OSes for vintage 32-bit and 16-bit PCs

#106

Post by lproven »

sixothree wrote: post #88
lproven wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's quite a feat to fit this into 4 MB on a 386. I had 2 different Librex 386SX laptops, with 4MB of RAM, on long-term loan from work around 1992. One was quite chunky, the 2nd was a slimline thing with an off-centre hinge. I ran OS/2 2.0 on them both. So I could run multiple DOS apps, and a WinOS2 VM containing Windows 3.0, meaning I could run Win16 apps as well. And native OS/2 apps, although I didn't have many.…

For you to downvote my small comment, and then go on to lecture me about things you have barely any grasp or memory of, is just astounding to me. I currently own at least 5 computers with 4 MB of RAM, part of a collection of computers that is too large to count (hence the project on github). A 386 with 4MB was the bare minimum to run Windows 3.11, which is considered the first mainstream GUI for PCs. Technically they…

> For you to downvote my small comment

I didn't. I checked. I have not.

> go on to lecture me about things you have barely any grasp or memory of,

No, this is not true or accurate. It is a personal attack.

I am a tech professional and I was back then as well. I ran Windows 2.0 and deployed 3.0 in production; I deployed and supported Windows 3.0, 3.1, Windows for Workgroups 3.1 (a different product of little importance except historically), 3.11 (a minor service pack), Windows for Workgroups 3.11 (a totally separate product you don't even mention), as well as NT 3.1, 3.5, 3.51, 4, 2000, XP, Server 2003, Vista, and more.

By casually mentioning something that barely mattered -- Windows 3.11 -- you show me that you know less than me about this stuff, and which I recall vividly and clearly. I still run OS/2 today. I reviewed the current version, because yes it is still alive:

https://www.theregister.com/software/2023/09/04/arcaos-51-gi...

I interviewed the company founder:

https://www.theregister.com/software/2023/01/19/os/2-warp-on...

Contrary to your claims, you are attempting to lecture me and I am not putting up with that. I built and supported entire corporate networks of Windows for Workgroups 3.11 computers, and I found bugs in it I personally filed with Microsoft, before Microsoft even had a website.

Windows 3.11 merits a single paragraph on Wikipedia and even that is substantially incorrect.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_3.1#Windows_3.11

It did not have any peer-to-peer networking: that is the editors confusing Windows 3.11 with the totally separate Windows for Workgroups 3.11. The distinguishing feature of WfWg is peer-to-peer networking.

You claims are factually incorrect.

Windows 3.11 was not the first mainstream GUI for PCs. Neither was Windows 3.1, a different earlier product. If anything it was DR GEM, which I have written about as well.

https://www.theregister.com/software/2022/08/04/the-many-der...

You'll find my name in the release notes for FreeGEM, because I was involved in that project in the 1990s.

Windows 3.0 was the first mainstream version of Windows.

I was there and told my boss he should order as many copies as he could get because it would sell out on the day of launch (May 1990). We had a queue outside the door before we opened at 9AM that morning. We had a grand total of 17 copies. They all sold in the first 2 minutes. I was right; he was wrong, and so are you.

Windows 3.11 or any from 3.0 to the final 3.2 did not require 4MB of RAM.

Windows 3.0, 3.1, 3.11 and Windows for Workgroups ran perfectly well in 2MB of RAM and did not require 4MB, which was a high-end PC in 1992. You can even force Win3.1 to start in 386 Enhanced Mode on a 1MB RAM PC (with the `/3` switch) and I did it at work almost every day.

3.0 ran fine in 1MB and 3.1 was perfectly usable in that little. As I recall, both wanted a minimum of 1MB for Standard Mode, the 286 protect-mode mode, but it could be forced with a command line switch (`/2` or `/s`) and 2MB for 386 Enhanced Mode.

https://forum.winworldpc.com/discussion/9906/windows-3-0-3-1...

OS/2 2.0 in 4MB was a normal config and it's what I used on all 3 or 4 of my machines which ran OS/2: two Librex ones and my own Sunrace 486DX50 (note, not DX2) laptop. I couldn't afford more memory.

You are dead wrong. I remember this very well indeed, thank you, and that's why I do things like go on stage and tell the world's largest FOSS conference that they're doing it wrong.

https://archive.fosdem.org/2018/interviews/liam-proven/

Sure, OS/2 2.0 as a protect-mode 32-bit OS would be better in 8MB and I am sure much better in 16MB, but I never even saw a PC with 16MB of RAM until over a year later. I deployed NT 3.1 in production in 1993, before its first service pack, and then I ordered that user (our brokerage's Head of Research, Eric) a 16MB PC and the thing cost over £5000.

My editor at PC Pro Magazine in 1995, Derek, got the first 32MB upgrade for any of our desktops, and that was so he could run the shiny new Windows 95.

I remember this stuff in a great deal more detail than you do, and what you think you remember is wrong. Every single number you cite is wrong, both version numbers and memory numbers.

Re: Show HN: GentleOS – A pair of hobby OSes for vintage 32-bit and 16-bit PCs

#107

Post by lproven »

haspok wrote: post #103
sixothree wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For you to downvote my small comment, and then go on to lecture me about things you have barely any grasp or memory of, is just astounding to me. I currently own at least 5 computers with 4 MB of RAM, part of a collection of computers that is too large to count (hence the project on github). A 386 with 4MB was the bare minimum to run Windows 3.11, which is considered the first mainstream GUI for PCs. Technically they…

Windows 3.1 was probably the first mainstream version of Windows, with significantly less memory requirements (and it ran no problem on a 286 IIRC). Windows 3.11 came almost 1.5 years later (despite the minor version bump), and mostly added networking, which _was_ memory hungry, but back then, people were happily running their computers isolated, especially at home. I guess my point is, 4MB was really a lot of memory…

> and mostly added networking

Careful. You are confusing Windows 3.11 with Windows for Workgroups 3.11. They were different products, at different times.

This is why version 3.11 of the Linux kernel was called Linux For Workgroups:

https://www.linuxfoundation.org/blog/blog/linux-kernel-3-11-...

That "for Workgroups" meant a whole different OS with a networking layer, protocol stacks, additional dialog boxes in File Manager to map and disconnect network drives and more.

WfWg was both a client and a server.

The first version was WfWg 3.1 which could run on a 286.

The one everyone deployed was WfWg 3.11 which despite its minor version bump was a 32-bit only OS needing 4MB of RAM because it only supported 386 Enhanced Mode. This was the version to contain some of the new tech from the forthcoming Windows 4.0, codenamed "Chicago" and later named "Windows 95".

WfWg 3.11 had 32-bit File Access as well as 3.1's 32-bit Disk Access. 32bFA was internally VFAT.VXD and that's why the Linux FAT16/FAT32 driver is called `VFAT.`

It had a 32-bit network stack in a VXD as well, which optionally supported a LAN-only 32-bit TCP/IP stack.

http://www.thenetworkencyclopedia.com/entry/tcp-ip-32-for-wi...

Here's the README. :-)

If you want it for some unimaginable reason, here is a download:

https://winworldpc.com/product/microsoft-tcp-ip-32/tcpip-32-...

Re: Show HN: GentleOS – A pair of hobby OSes for vintage 32-bit and 16-bit PCs

#108

Post by lproven »

marssaxman wrote: post #99
II2II wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Different people are going to have different experiences, based on what they had and what they used it for. If you've ever used a 68000 based Macintosh, you were limited to 4 MB RAM and 1 MB seems to have been more typical. It's in a different league to be sure, black and white graphics and multitasking was optional prior to System 7 (and I don't think multitasking was shipped with the System Software until System 6)…

The "MultiFinder" extension allowing cooperative multitasking was actually included with "System Software 5", but I don't think I used it myself until System 6.

Same here. It was at least marginally more stable on "System Six."
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