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Show HN: Firefox add-on to open YouTube videos in alternative front ends

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Re: Show HN: Firefox add-on to open YouTube videos in alternative front ends

#101

Post by tgv »

marticode wrote: post #78
tgv wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Storage and bandwidth cost money, but not $14/month. You can get a server for yourself for that kind of money, and I don't think YouTube has a server per user.

Producing content also cost money, and producers get a cut of the ads or the subscription.

Produces receive very, very little. And YT doesn't check content (nor content strikes, BTW), so there's a lot of illegal(ish) content which moves money from producer to leecher. It seems active channels get most of their income from 3rd parties as a result. So there's little reason to place ads as far as content production is concerned.

Re: Show HN: Firefox add-on to open YouTube videos in alternative front ends

#102

Post by tgv »

petree wrote: post #92
tgv wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Storage and bandwidth cost money, but not $14/month. You can get a server for yourself for that kind of money, and I don't think YouTube has a server per user.

Sure, it is definitely more expensive than I would like. But you still have the option to watch the ads if you don't like paying a sub. Expecting it to be completely free is unrealistic though.

Sure, but then the logical step would be to charge producers and get them to charge viewers, either directly or via ads. But we all know that will result in the demise of the platform, so that's a no-no for both youtube and producers.

Your subscription money doesn't go to the producers anyway, or only little of it, so the $14/mo is for a large part Google's profit.

Re: Show HN: Firefox add-on to open YouTube videos in alternative front ends

#103

Post by Fnoord »

atleta wrote: post #57
ryandrake wrote: post #40

It would be nice if browsers were able to get around all these kinds of shenanigans directly, instead of having to always reach for extensions and addons and endlessly participate in this cat and mouse game. After all, the browser is supposed to be the user's agent. Its job is to do what the user wants and fetch the content that the user asks for. Somewhere along the path, we've made a terrible turn and allowed the b…

Lookig at it source (the page downloaded when you open a YT link pointing to a video), it's almost certain that YT doesn't load without JS. It's not an html page with some extra functionality implemented in JS, it's a web app that builds the web page you see from JS. So firefox can't do much about it without actively trying to circumvent YT and YT specifically. I don't think browsers made the turn you mention. It's m…

If youtube-dl (or its successor) can do it; so can a browser (extension). Whether the browser should natively allow this I leave up to the browser devs.

> Also, you can't have an ad-free experience if the price of using a service is that the ad is delivered to you. On YT you can buy a subscription and you'll see no ads. But sure, most sites don't offer this.

Websites have various models: non-profit, donation-based, advertising-based, tracked-based. A website like YouTube still has high profit margins as they do tracking as well.

Re: Show HN: Firefox add-on to open YouTube videos in alternative front ends

#104

Post by Fnoord »

yakshaving_jgt wrote: post #94
mandmandam wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, you can't have an ad-free experience if the price of using a service is that the ad is delivered to you. On YT you can buy a subscription and you'll see no ads. Just to be very clear, those are not the only two possible options. YouTube - and Facebook, Google, Whatsapp, etc - are extraordinarily simple concepts. We don't need private corporations running them for profit. In fact, it's turning out really bad f…

You're welcome to build an alternative and claim their kingdom. The reason that hasn't happened yet is because whether or not you find YT an extraordinarily simple concept, the execution is tremendously difficult.

It has happened, claiming their kingdom hasn't happened because of network effect. Not because they're objectively better.

Re: Show HN: Firefox add-on to open YouTube videos in alternative front ends

#105

Post by BiteCode_dev »

Tor3 wrote: post #97
BiteCode_dev wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now that DRM are part of the web standards, and TPM are generalized, it's game over. I predict youtube will escalate this way: - Pump up aggressive anti ad block measures. - It will fail, so they will enforce DRM so that they have control. - It will not be enough, so they will ask to only serve DRM to "trusted browsers". - And it will not suffice, so the trusted browser will have to run on a trusted OS checked by har…

If the day comes when it's impossible to watch Youtube without ads I'll have to leave, despite how important youtube is for me currently. I just can't watch ads. It's impossible. I don't watch a single TV channel with ads, it's too painful. So, advertisement-supported "moving pictures" (or sound, for that matter - I never listen to radio channels serving ads either) is out of the question, with no exceptions for me p…

Tv says there are plenty of people who will suffer ads.

Spotify free offer is also proof of that.

Re: Show HN: Firefox add-on to open YouTube videos in alternative front ends

#106

Post by mandmandam »

yakshaving_jgt wrote: post #94
mandmandam wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, you can't have an ad-free experience if the price of using a service is that the ad is delivered to you. On YT you can buy a subscription and you'll see no ads. Just to be very clear, those are not the only two possible options. YouTube - and Facebook, Google, Whatsapp, etc - are extraordinarily simple concepts. We don't need private corporations running them for profit. In fact, it's turning out really bad f…

You're welcome to build an alternative and claim their kingdom. The reason that hasn't happened yet is because whether or not you find YT an extraordinarily simple concept, the execution is tremendously difficult.

The execution isn't actually that difficult for things like Facebook and Twitter. As pointed out, it's a network effect thing; the same reason Bitcoin is dominant despite there being alternatives that are orders of magnitude better on every metric.

The cost per user to run most of those platforms is in the pennies range. Certainly under $4 / year / user.

Compare that to the cost of leaving our vulnerable minds - our parents and grandparents, or angry loners, etc - to the likes of Ben Shapiro or Jordan Peterson, who YouTube is weirdly obsessed with.

YouTube is a bit more expensive to run, sure... But the total cost is still a tiny fraction of the tax take, were we to fund a free and fair alternative ourselves.

Btw, expecting a fully viable alternative from a single person before you ever start exploring criticism or alternatives is wildly silly, imo.

Re: Show HN: Firefox add-on to open YouTube videos in alternative front ends

#107

Post by wildrhythms »

loveparade wrote: post #48

I don't care as much about the privacy as I care about not messing up my Youtube recommendations. Any time I accidentally click on or hover over some BS video my front page is full of clickbait spam and I need to manually clean up my watch history. I guess (?) it works for monetization, but the UX of YouTube and their pushing of clickbait content has become horrible over the past few years. I just wish they stopped t…

Certain 'categories' of Youtube videos is like dropping a nuclear bomb in your suggestions. Even accidentally clicking on it and immediately going back will poison the well. I have to go into my watch history and delete, and then spend days clicking 'three dots > Not interested' on the horrific thumbnails until Youtube stops recommending that category. I call it tending the garden.

Re: Show HN: Firefox add-on to open YouTube videos in alternative front ends

#108

Post by yakshaving_jgt »

mandmandam wrote: post #106
yakshaving_jgt wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're welcome to build an alternative and claim their kingdom. The reason that hasn't happened yet is because whether or not you find YT an extraordinarily simple concept, the execution is tremendously difficult.

The execution isn't actually that difficult for things like Facebook and Twitter. As pointed out, it's a network effect thing; the same reason Bitcoin is dominant despite there being alternatives that are orders of magnitude better on every metric. The cost per user to run most of those platforms is in the pennies range. Certainly under $4 / year / user. Compare that to the cost of leaving our vulnerable minds - our…

As I already replied to an adjacent comment, the execution includes designing in those network effects and maintaining/modifying them over time. It also includes the moderation, marketing, operations, etc. It's literally everything beyond just the idea.

Furthermore, in no way have I stated nor implied that I expect an alternative must be implemented by a single person. I think your least charitable interpretation of my comment is wildly silly.

Re: Show HN: Firefox add-on to open YouTube videos in alternative front ends

#109

Post by _cenw »

matheusmoreira wrote: post #99
atleta wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lookig at it source (the page downloaded when you open a YT link pointing to a video), it's almost certain that YT doesn't load without JS. It's not an html page with some extra functionality implemented in JS, it's a web app that builds the web page you see from JS. So firefox can't do much about it without actively trying to circumvent YT and YT specifically. I don't think browsers made the turn you mention. It's m…

> So firefox can't do much about it without actively trying to circumvent YT and YT specifically. There's no reason why Firefox couldn't do that. > Also, you can't have an ad-free experience if the price of using a service is that the ad is delivered to you. Sure I can, uBlock Origin provides exactly that. They are not entitled to my attention. If they have a problem with that, they can return 402 Payment Required.

That's excessive scope creep. Adding site-specific workarounds for some sites feels uncomfortable. Who decides what websites get "fixed", and how? That's a great bit to move to addons. Maybe recommend them more visibly instead.

Also, remember how Mozilla is funded.

Re: Show HN: Firefox add-on to open YouTube videos in alternative front ends

#110

Post by ta1243 »

Tor3 wrote: post #97
BiteCode_dev wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now that DRM are part of the web standards, and TPM are generalized, it's game over. I predict youtube will escalate this way: - Pump up aggressive anti ad block measures. - It will fail, so they will enforce DRM so that they have control. - It will not be enough, so they will ask to only serve DRM to "trusted browsers". - And it will not suffice, so the trusted browser will have to run on a trusted OS checked by har…

If the day comes when it's impossible to watch Youtube without ads I'll have to leave, despite how important youtube is for me currently. I just can't watch ads. It's impossible. I don't watch a single TV channel with ads, it's too painful. So, advertisement-supported "moving pictures" (or sound, for that matter - I never listen to radio channels serving ads either) is out of the question, with no exceptions for me p…

My understanding is you can pay a relatively small amount and get ad-free youtube. At least google ads. You'd still need sponsorblock.

That said I do like a well designed sponsor. Map Men for example, I'd rather not watch them.

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