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Show HN: RankedVote – SurveyMonkey but focused on ranked-choice voting

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101–110 of 326 posts

Re: Show HN: RankedVote – SurveyMonkey but focused on ranked-choice voting

#101
post #32

Ranking the voting systems: STAR Voting > Approval Voting > Ranked Choice Voting > Plurality ("pick only one") voting. Ranked Choice Voting is marginally better than plurality voting, but it has problems. The chief defect with Ranked Choice Voting is its non-monotonicity, whereby increasing your support for your genuine favorite can actually hurt their odds of winning. This may be what happened in Alaska [1]. STAR Vo…

I just want to make clear for others: this "ranking" is just bhauer's opinion. Since some people here might interpret it as being presented as objective fact or some consensus opinion. There are a lot of pros/cons to all of the richer voting systems, usually categorized as approval voting, ranked voting, and score voting, in terms of increasing information. But there is absolutely no consensus that approval or score…

> ranked choice is what has the growing momentum

Using that as justification for why ranked choice should be adopted is circular reasoning.

Re: Show HN: RankedVote – SurveyMonkey but focused on ranked-choice voting

#103
post #58
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea, it's been interesting to watch how RCV has filtered into the public consciousness over the past 5-10 years and slowly increased in terms of how many people parrot it as the answer to all our voting ills. There was a site posted to HN years back that mathematically analyzed a ton of these voting schemes, I cannot seem to find it on Google but it was some sort of hybrid scheme that apparently has the best overall…

IRV is a Schelling Point, and I think it's important to consider it as such. The biggest critique of alternatives to FPTP is "they are too complicated". When you look at an individual system like IRV it seems hard to sustain that objection, but then a bunch of voting system nerds enter the room, and now we're comparing Condorcet to Borda, and critiquing a bunch of mathematical properties of each system, and drawing g…

Condorcet is actually quite simple, and the voting community does it a huge disservice by insisting on talking about it in very complicated ways.

Condorcet is just "if a candidate would beat all others head to head, then that candidate is the winner".

But the voting community insists on immediately jumping to all the crazy tie-breaking algorithms you need to implement if there is a "loop" (Smith Set).

My opinion has always been that those two concepts should be severed. All the "flaws" of Condorcet actually only apply to when tiebreakers are used. The flaws do not apply when there is a Condorcet Winner.

(The Smith Set isn't hard to understand either. It's just "these candidates beat all others head to head.")

And when there isn't a Condorcet Winner, that is actually valuable information. It means that the population was not ready to decide. It may warrant a later runoff, giving the population more opportunity to research the remaining Smith-Set candidates, and decide through additional debates or whatever else. As an alternative, people can always choose to apply any old method for the tiebreaker - even IRV! Condorcet-IRV (where IRV would only be applied to the Smith Set) strictly dominates IRV-only, in every way.

Re: Show HN: RankedVote – SurveyMonkey but focused on ranked-choice voting

#104
post #32

Ranking the voting systems: STAR Voting > Approval Voting > Ranked Choice Voting > Plurality ("pick only one") voting. Ranked Choice Voting is marginally better than plurality voting, but it has problems. The chief defect with Ranked Choice Voting is its non-monotonicity, whereby increasing your support for your genuine favorite can actually hurt their odds of winning. This may be what happened in Alaska [1]. STAR Vo…

https://star.vote/ is pretty good. I've used it for some votes for a small community with usually more than fifteen different options, and it's worked pretty well!

Re: Show HN: RankedVote – SurveyMonkey but focused on ranked-choice voting

#105
post #32

Ranking the voting systems: STAR Voting > Approval Voting > Ranked Choice Voting > Plurality ("pick only one") voting. Ranked Choice Voting is marginally better than plurality voting, but it has problems. The chief defect with Ranked Choice Voting is its non-monotonicity, whereby increasing your support for your genuine favorite can actually hurt their odds of winning. This may be what happened in Alaska [1]. STAR Vo…

Isn’t giving each candidate a score even more gameable than ranking candidates. If I like candidate A and think candidate B is their best opposition I can give candidate A 5.0 and candidate B 0.0 even if my real opinion of candidate B is 3.0. Lowering candidate B’s score artificially definitely helps candidate A.

Re: Show HN: RankedVote – SurveyMonkey but focused on ranked-choice voting

#107
post #105
post #32

Ranking the voting systems: STAR Voting > Approval Voting > Ranked Choice Voting > Plurality ("pick only one") voting. Ranked Choice Voting is marginally better than plurality voting, but it has problems. The chief defect with Ranked Choice Voting is its non-monotonicity, whereby increasing your support for your genuine favorite can actually hurt their odds of winning. This may be what happened in Alaska [1]. STAR Vo…

Isn’t giving each candidate a score even more gameable than ranking candidates. If I like candidate A and think candidate B is their best opposition I can give candidate A 5.0 and candidate B 0.0 even if my real opinion of candidate B is 3.0. Lowering candidate B’s score artificially definitely helps candidate A.

I think you misread the comment you're replying to. Calculating a total score is simply summing the scores assigned to a candidate from each voter, so there's no way to "lower candidate B's score artificially". There's no averaging going on here.

Re: Show HN: RankedVote – SurveyMonkey but focused on ranked-choice voting

#108
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This right here is the problem, these things get way too damn complicated for normal people really fast.

You don't think normal people can understand: "Rate this candidate from 0 to 5 stars?" If so, we really need to rethink a lot of how we ask for people's opinions, because this is probably the most common way.

The problem is not understanding how to rate a candidate but understanding what the ratings will accomplish and what voting strategy should be used to get your intended outcome.

Re: Show HN: RankedVote – SurveyMonkey but focused on ranked-choice voting

#109
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How long would it take to teach a member of the general public to evaluate IRV results? I'm puzzled by this. You can do it with pencil and paper in a few minutes? It's simple addition. You can easily build a website that visualizes each step if you think addition is difficult for people. It's trivial to compute in a spreadsheet. > might leave people disillusioned This is speculative; if it is true, you can find evi…

> It's simple addition. Not quite. The tallying algorithm is `while (no candidate > 50% of votes): pop min(candidates), reallocate_votes(min(candidates))`. On the other hand cardinal methods are `argmax(sum(candidates))`. For comparison, FPTP is `argmax(sum(candidates))` too. The only difference is that FPTP is a one-hot vector. I'd argue that the average person intuitively understands cardinal methods without any tr…

To add to the simplicity case: STAR and Approval voting are on essence how many online rating systems like IMDB, Yelp or Rotten Tomatoes work. Those seem very intuitive to users. (Edit: ignoring cases where those platforms hide votes etc)

Re: Show HN: RankedVote – SurveyMonkey but focused on ranked-choice voting

#110
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just want to make clear for others: this "ranking" is just bhauer's opinion. Since some people here might interpret it as being presented as objective fact or some consensus opinion. There are a lot of pros/cons to all of the richer voting systems, usually categorized as approval voting, ranked voting, and score voting, in terms of increasing information. But there is absolutely no consensus that approval or score…

it would be a shame to spend our effort squabbling over which alternative, than giving support to the one that has the most momentum and chance of succeeding now I think the bigger shame would be to spend so much effort promoting RCV, only to have people become jaded and disillusioned with voting method reform in general when they realize RCVs many glaring problems. The biggest problem with RCV IMO is that it looks l…

I don't see a problem in the Alaska election. Perhaps I'm missing something? I posted this in a previous discussion but I'll repost because I'm keen to hear other perspectives.

From https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-democrats-win-in-a...

> 40 percent of voters had chosen Peltola as their first choice, 31 percent had chosen Palin and 29 percent had chosen Republican businessman Nick Begich III. Under the rules of ranked choice voting, Begich — as the candidate with the fewest first-choice votes — was then eliminated, and his votes were redistributed to whomever his voters ranked second.

> Unsurprisingly, most of Begich’s votes (50 percent) went to his fellow Republican, Palin. But an impressive 29 percent went to Peltola, and 21 percent were “exhausted,” meaning there was no second-choice pick, and the votes were essentially thrown out. That combination was enough for Peltola to win. While Palin gained more votes from the redistribution than Peltola did, Peltola was starting from a higher total, and receiving 29 percent of Begich’s votes was enough to keep her ahead of Palin. In the end, Peltola received 51 percent of the votes counted in the final round, while Palin received 49 percent.

Sounds fair to me. Some of Begich’s voters expressed a “Begich or nobody” preference. Many Begich voters expressed a “Peltola over Palin” preference. It’s not clear to me why pairwise preferences are meaningful, they don’t encode nuances like the above.

The objection about the spoiler effect is confusing to me. I see that there are certain situations where ex post, you get some weird outcomes where _hypothetically_ ranking your preferred candidate lower would have helped your candidate. But I don't think it's possible to identify these cases ex ante, and I don't see how they can in practice affect anyone's voting strategy. (Though maybe it's enough to get bad press like https://electionscience.org/commentary-analysis/rcv-fools-pa...?)

I think you can spin these technical narratives like "you threw your votes away because, if there had been a head-to-head it would have gone differently". But taking a simple explanation of what happened like the above, it's hard for me to see why the result is actively unfair.

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