Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Show HN: Offset – Credit card powered by trust between people

offsetcredit.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

101–110 of 113 posts

Re: Show HN: Offset – Credit card powered by trust between people

#101

Post by realcr »

jkhdigital wrote: post #31
realcr wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi. You are correct, you need to have some credit line, possibly indirect, between you and the other party, if you want to send money or receive money with Offset. This is the core of how Offset works. > why wouldn't this model eventually end up with banker-type people managing the credit for everyone? I thought about this question for a long time myself. As a first note, I don't think Offset should completely replac…

Flow is limited by the narrowest pipe along the path, and my suspicion is that you would need to get to pretty damn high user adoption before you could expect consistent, high flow between points since you'll need to find many alternative paths. Prior to that level, the network wouldn't be very useful. Still not entirely sure what problem this solves. As a consumer, I don't really have an issue with current payment s…

> Flow is limited by the narrowest pipe along the path

Ah, this was a concern I had too. To mitigate it, Offset allows paying using a multi-path: a few paths together. It happens atomically, and doesn't require intervention from the user.

Re: Show HN: Offset – Credit card powered by trust between people

#102

Post by realcr »

rjmunro wrote: post #85

I would market this as an app for a few friends to install and keep track of what they owe each other when one of them settles the bill at a restaurant. Whoever owed the most could settle that day, and everyone else's bill would be deducted. A network of friends could expand from there. A "credit card" has negative connotations for many people. Watching the "setting up" video here: https://docs.offsetcredit.org/en/la…

This comment contains some really useful feedback. Highly appreciated. Not sure what would be a good branding instead of using the term "credit card". What do you think?

About the default servers, I always have the fear the system will become too centralized, so I tried to force the user to understand he can pick any server he wants. Maybe I am wrong here, this needs some extra consideration.

About the other defaults that seem convoluted: I picked those due to security considerations, but maybe you are correct, and it is better to leave things open by default there.

If you are interested in reviewing the next versions before they are published, please stay in touch. You can send me an email directly or join the mailing list if you like.

Re: Show HN: Offset – Credit card powered by trust between people

#103

Post by centimeter »

technotony wrote: post #23
centimeter wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there is a tension between store of value and medium of exchange This tension only exists under Keynesian reasoning. It goes away when you use a theory that does a better job handling equilibria. The Keynesian claim is that if you have a deflationary medium of exchange, people won’t spend it. This isn’t actually true - the end result of a predictable deflationary asset (e.g. something with a fixed or essentially fi…

It's less that they won't spend it, and more they won't invest it. As you point out if you can get exposure to global capital growth by keeping your money in cash you will do that. This starves the world of risk capital being invested in new projects, the net benefit of which is responsible for capital growth. So nobody invests and technological progress drives to a halt (well maybe governments invest in military tec…

This line of argument also suffers from the Keynesian tendency to view money as a kind of physical constraint.

The global capital market is a continuous auction process to allocate the world’s collective productive output at any given time.

Inflationary money: people have to place meaningless low-information randomized “bids” (buying spoos) to protect their assets from inflation. This crowds out high-information directed bids.

Deflationary money: people without an edge simply refrain from placing “bids” (by saving cash) and each unit of money that does get spent on bids has more power to influence the allocation of capital.

In the end, I expect it to come out in the wash. You might actually see more capital invested in stuff like R&D because you have less money blindly pumping up entrenched large-cap valuations through spoos. That depends on how good of a job fundamental analysis funds are doing in today’s world.

Re: Show HN: Offset – Credit card powered by trust between people

#104

Post by centimeter »

jonahbenton wrote: post #21
centimeter wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there is a tension between store of value and medium of exchange This tension only exists under Keynesian reasoning. It goes away when you use a theory that does a better job handling equilibria. The Keynesian claim is that if you have a deflationary medium of exchange, people won’t spend it. This isn’t actually true - the end result of a predictable deflationary asset (e.g. something with a fixed or essentially fi…

Thank you, agree with that, and actually was not suggesting to stick with medium of exchange for technical considerations. More about product focus. The BTC people have the asset/inflation hedge thing nailed. Leave them to it. Disentangle the things that are money. Here, prices in the offset ecosystem are going to float because goods are exposed to/sources from the actual money ecosystem. There will be aspects of inf…

If there’s no compensating benefit that necessarily requires inflation, why would I (as a rational self-interested person) ever prefer to keep any of my holdings in an inflationary asset? If you can come up with a great inflationary payment system, someone should just copy it but make it deflationary, and it’s instantly better. (Unless there is actually some killer feature that requires inflation.)

Re: Show HN: Offset – Credit card powered by trust between people

#105

Post by centimeter »

Enginerrrd wrote: post #94
splintercell wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does. When you hide money under your mattress this is equivalent of you giving your money to all the US dollar investors out there in proportion to the amount of investment they're making. So let's just say if there is a small economy where there are only two investors you and Elon Musk, and you decide to skip investing in any business and hide money under the mattress, then this is equivalent of you giving the mo…

Ah ok I see your angle now, but I think there's a critical flaw. Your investment into the general market is really only the amount of interest earned on deflation of that amount. Compare this with investing the whole amount into a local bakery. The utility difference is dramatic.

> Compare this with investing the whole amount into a local bakery. The utility difference is dramatic.

I do not agree that the utility difference is dramatic. The utility difference is closely proportional to the difference on expected returns.

Re: Show HN: Offset – Credit card powered by trust between people

#106

Post by centimeter »

Enginerrrd wrote: post #38
splintercell wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But here's the issue in Keynesian thinking, all savings is investment, it's investment in money. Like any investment, it has a return (which comes from the increased value of money), and risk (if instead of increase value, the value of money is decreased).

Yes, but hiding your money in the mattress doesn't create jobs, businesses, innovation, etc. I fail to see the "issue in Keynesian thinking" you're talking about.

Hiding money in the mattress has no net effect on the number of jobs or businesses or innovation. I used to have the same reservations as you - the problem is that I was stuck on a local Keynesian/“Newtonian” view of the problem which makes it hard to predict equilibrium states. You need to switch to a “Lagrangian” view where you don’t have to manually step through all the decomposed effects of a marginal change in the money supply. A key realization is that humanity’s labor capacity at any instant is 100% independent of the number of dollars.

Re: Show HN: Offset – Credit card powered by trust between people

#107

Post by jonahbenton »

centimeter wrote: post #104
jonahbenton wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you, agree with that, and actually was not suggesting to stick with medium of exchange for technical considerations. More about product focus. The BTC people have the asset/inflation hedge thing nailed. Leave them to it. Disentangle the things that are money. Here, prices in the offset ecosystem are going to float because goods are exposed to/sources from the actual money ecosystem. There will be aspects of inf…

If there’s no compensating benefit that necessarily requires inflation, why would I (as a rational self-interested person) ever prefer to keep any of my holdings in an inflationary asset? If you can come up with a great inflationary payment system, someone should just copy it but make it deflationary, and it’s instantly better. (Unless there is actually some killer feature that requires inflation.)

Well, I would argue credit is the compensating benefit- and killer feature- that historically goes hand in hand with inflation, and I would say it this way- credit is generally the mechanism by which assets are discovered and incorporated into the economy, thus "inflating" it (not the technical definition of inflation, of course) and benefitting all. Technical definitions of inflation are just various measures of changes of liquidity in the credit economy.

Whether a deflationary payment system is instantly better, for me, that's a philosophical argument, between liquidity and value.

Life is uncertain. Humans take risks, invest, speculate, even just work- they need liquidity to do so, and credit mechanisms and accounting provide a structured way to do so.

I am interested in what Offset discovers, and think there is new value to be discovered in keeping a (necessarily inflationary) credit system separated from the rest of the financial world.

Cheers.

Re: Show HN: Offset – Credit card powered by trust between people

#108

Post by splintercell »

realcr wrote: post #100
splintercell wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does. When you hide money under your mattress this is equivalent of you giving your money to all the US dollar investors out there in proportion to the amount of investment they're making. So let's just say if there is a small economy where there are only two investors you and Elon Musk, and you decide to skip investing in any business and hide money under the mattress, then this is equivalent of you giving the mo…

I really enjoyed reading this.

Lol, I should tell you about my thought experiment of capitalist society of perfect inequality (or how it would be an amazing place to live).

Re: Show HN: Offset – Credit card powered by trust between people

#109

Post by splintercell »

Enginerrrd wrote: post #94
splintercell wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does. When you hide money under your mattress this is equivalent of you giving your money to all the US dollar investors out there in proportion to the amount of investment they're making. So let's just say if there is a small economy where there are only two investors you and Elon Musk, and you decide to skip investing in any business and hide money under the mattress, then this is equivalent of you giving the mo…

Ah ok I see your angle now, but I think there's a critical flaw. Your investment into the general market is really only the amount of interest earned on deflation of that amount. Compare this with investing the whole amount into a local bakery. The utility difference is dramatic.

> Your investment into the general market is really only the amount of interest earned on deflation of that amount.

Your investment is the whole amount which would have purchased the 3 components of production (land/labor/capital), because the price of all these goods have fallen, which have allowed other entrepreneurs to buy them for their own investment.

What you're saying is like telling people who invest in index funds only that their investment is only the interest on the yearly return they get from the fund.

Re: Show HN: Offset – Credit card powered by trust between people

#110

Post by splintercell »

bildung wrote: post #80
splintercell wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes and I understand, my point is that savings and investment aren't really qualitatively different activities. Savings are investment in money, and 'Investment' is investment in non-money goods.

But there is a qualitative difference! Storing excess capital into money is "saving". Using this saved capital to buy a car for private use, or videogames, is consumption. Using the money to produce more capital, like buying a machine for work, or even "buying" a degree at a university, is investment. The transformation of money into another store of value or physical thing is is not automatically investment, and the…

You can also check this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23452897

The fundamental idea is that if you store your money under the mattress then this is equivalent of investing in the most diversified index fund out there, you invest in EVERY business and CEO out there who operates in the USD economy.

This generally is a bad idea because the Federal Reserve produces more money which results in reduced returns, BUT, this effect is really visible in fixed money supply economies such as Bitcoin. By hodling bitcoin you invest in every bitcoin business out there (including the scams) because by not competing with other investors for the same resources, you allow them to operate at a bigger scale.

Post reply on HN