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Show HN: Nomouse

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Re: Show HN: Nomouse

#101

Post by Ace17 »

WesleyJohnson wrote: post #35

I've never understood the sentiment that using a mouse is bad. I see blog posts all the time about how a programmer's job is more thinking than writing code and/or writing good programs is also about taking out just as much code as you put in. So if writing programs is a deliberate and methodical process that - I'd argue it's also slow. Why then is there antithesis that mice slow you down and you need keyboard shortc…

> I see blog posts all the time about how a programmer's job is more thinking than writing code and/or writing good programs is also about taking out just as much code as you put in.

It becomes a lot more debatable when you're modifying existing code (rather than writing new code).

There are actually lots of cases when the thinking takes a small fraction of the typing, e.g "this block should be extracted as a separate method", "this class needs to be renamed", "this interface should be split" ... or, even more obvious "this file needs to be properly indented".

We have automatic tools for some of these operations, precisely because doing them manually might spend a ridiculous amount of programming time.

Re: Show HN: Nomouse

#102

Post by navs »

Another strategy: Use a laptop with a terrible touchpad. Being a longtime Macbook user now switching to non-Mac laptops, I just don't find my current Lenovo X1 touchpad to be in the same league. It feels slow and unresponsive. But the keyboard is marvelous. I rarely use my mouse and when I do it's mostly to click items that don't have attached shortcuts.

Re: Show HN: Nomouse

#103

Post by mjw1007 »

chipotle_coyote wrote: post #92
WesleyJohnson wrote: post #35

I've never understood the sentiment that using a mouse is bad. I see blog posts all the time about how a programmer's job is more thinking than writing code and/or writing good programs is also about taking out just as much code as you put in. So if writing programs is a deliberate and methodical process that - I'd argue it's also slow. Why then is there antithesis that mice slow you down and you need keyboard shortc…

I suspect a lot more of it is perception than people imagine: keeping your hands on the keyboard all the time seems like it intuitively must be faster. Early research in human-computer interfaces suggests that this isn't actually the case, though. From 1989: "We've done a cool $50 million of R&D on the Apple Human Interface. We discovered, among other things, two pertinent facts: (1) Test subjects consistently report…

I wish people would stop citing that old AskTOG article.

The $50 million (in 1989) research figure sounds impressive, but they don't say how much of that was keyboard-vs-mouse research and the answer is quite likely "very little".

It seems that, like most UX research, they were testing how well novices manage rather than how well people do after weeks of experience (the latter is expensive to test!).

When you get to "It takes two seconds to decide upon which special-function key to press. Deciding among abstract symbols is a high-level cognitive function." it's clear that what they were looking at is a very very long way from how a typical Vim or Emacs user works.

I think the article _is_ interesting as evidence for the proposition "it's possible for people to believe that they're quicker with the keyboard when they're not". But it's nowhere near enough evidence to get as far as "we can dismiss people who believe they're quicker with the keyboard as mistaken".

Re: Show HN: Nomouse

#104

Post by corecoder »

WesleyJohnson wrote: post #35

I've never understood the sentiment that using a mouse is bad. I see blog posts all the time about how a programmer's job is more thinking than writing code and/or writing good programs is also about taking out just as much code as you put in. So if writing programs is a deliberate and methodical process that - I'd argue it's also slow. Why then is there antithesis that mice slow you down and you need keyboard shortc…

One important thing about keyboard is that it is a mostly uninterrupted buffered stream: with some notable exceptions, you can usually keep typing whether the previous command is done executing or not. You can type ahead several long running commands (in a shell, in an editor, for instance) and then let go. Or, you can click, wait, click, wait, click and then finally switch to something else.

Is it a big deal? I suppose it depends on how much you think in terms of whole sequences of commands.

Re: Show HN: Nomouse

#107

Post by afterburner »

noctuid wrote: post #76
WesleyJohnson wrote: post #35

I've never understood the sentiment that using a mouse is bad. I see blog posts all the time about how a programmer's job is more thinking than writing code and/or writing good programs is also about taking out just as much code as you put in. So if writing programs is a deliberate and methodical process that - I'd argue it's also slow. Why then is there antithesis that mice slow you down and you need keyboard shortc…

It's not just that using the mouse is slow. The mouse is also dumb. By that I mean that you can't tell it to take intelligent actions like jump to/select/delete a particular semantic unit (e.g. a sentence). Using the keyboard allows for more intelligent actions and for composition of actions with (optionally) mnemonic keybindings. The mouse is far less precise and requires some UI for pretty much anything. Besides, e…

Just highlight the sentence really quickly. Do it enough and you get good at it. Just like with keyboard shortcuts.......

Re: Show HN: Nomouse

#108

Post by watwut »

jmjanzen wrote: post #73
WesleyJohnson wrote: post #35

I've never understood the sentiment that using a mouse is bad. I see blog posts all the time about how a programmer's job is more thinking than writing code and/or writing good programs is also about taking out just as much code as you put in. So if writing programs is a deliberate and methodical process that - I'd argue it's also slow. Why then is there antithesis that mice slow you down and you need keyboard shortc…

I think I can speak from a position of genuine dislike of mouse usage. I enjoy it for certain things, like perusing the web, or clicking through tickets while sipping on a morning coffee. The mouse is a great invention, and I would never want to get rid of it completely. That said (subjectivity ahead), the mouse becomes annoying only when I'm done thinking, and it's time for doing. Imagine you've got your window mana…

Navigating code with mouse is much faster then with keyboard only. Things like ctrl+click to see function definition or mouse over to see function documention, variable value or its type. Double click the name before I press shout cut for rename and so on and so forth.

Re: Show HN: Nomouse

#109

Post by lorenzhs »

ryandrake wrote: post #53
blunte wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An old-schooler would be the one asking, "why do I need a mouse?" Anyway, it sounds like you're asking, "Why are keyboard shortcuts faster than moving a mouse to a location and then clicking [and potentially having to move to another location, such as the menu that just dropped down, and clicking again]?" Does this really need an answer?

You forgot even more inefficiency: Lifting your hand off the keyboard and moving it to the mouse, [insert your above steps], then moving back to the home row.

No problem at all if you use a TrackPoint. I don't even have a mouse, I use the ThinkPad USB keyboard at work which includes a TrackPoint. I know some people dislike them with a passion, and they don't look fashionable, but I can't use a keyboard without one any more.

Re: Show HN: Nomouse

#110

Post by k__ »

Reminds me of my first day as a programming intern.

All the older devs where blown away by my mouse usage speed.

I guess a skilled shortcut user is faster than a skilled mouse user, but I still can outperform the average shortcut user :D

thanks to years of FPS and RTS games.

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