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Show HN: San Francisco MUNI Transit Delays, Visualized

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Re: Show HN: San Francisco MUNI Transit Delays, Visualized

#11

Post by timr »

cbhl wrote: post #7
timr wrote: post #2

Looking at some of the bus routes confirms something I've suspected about MUNI for a long time: most of the "delays" happen at the beginning of the route. I've watched bus drivers sit there for 10+ minutes past the departure time on many occasions, and there appears to be no penalty for the behavior. I don't know if the drivers are taking a mandated minimum break, waiting in response to orders from dispatch, or just…

Are you sure that's not "the bus driver is waiting for his clock to read the scheduled departure time" or "the bus driver is waiting for people to pay their fare and board the bus" or "the bus driver turned the bus on early to warm it up"? Every bus I've ridden in has signs plastered all over the front saying how you need to idle it when starting up / shutting down the bus to avoid destroying the innards, so I would…

Am I sure? No. That's why I said I didn't know if they were waiting for dispatch, or something else. But I find it implausible that those sorts of delays would cause nearly every departure to be 10+ minutes late at the start of the route, as they seem to in these plots.

Also, I have a lot of direct experience with drivers on certain lines just sleeping in the back of their buses until past the departure time.

Re: Show HN: San Francisco MUNI Transit Delays, Visualized

#12

Post by timr »

blaines wrote: post #10
cbhl wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure that's not "the bus driver is waiting for his clock to read the scheduled departure time" or "the bus driver is waiting for people to pay their fare and board the bus" or "the bus driver turned the bus on early to warm it up"? Every bus I've ridden in has signs plastered all over the front saying how you need to idle it when starting up / shutting down the bus to avoid destroying the innards, so I would…

Hang out around Embarcadero Station during evening rush or 4th & King sometime. It's a real mess. I've seen 4 busses running back to back, and some mornings I'll see 5 or more trains backed up. Not to mention the entire system already runs at a snail's pace. I generally bike, and I will usually get there in about 1/2 the time. Compare to Chicago where there's no way I could outrun a CTA bus, let alone the trains.

Yeah, that's fine. I expect delays at rush hour. I don't expect to see nearly every departure for nearly every line delayed by ten minutes or more. That's what these plots seem to be suggesting.

Re: Show HN: San Francisco MUNI Transit Delays, Visualized

#14

Post by timr »

dougmccune wrote: post #8

Trying to compare against the published schedule isn't all that useful. As a resident of SF, I long ago gave up the idea that you could look up the scheduled arrival of a bus and plan around that. However, if a bus is supposed to be running every 12 minutes, that's the number you can plan around (or use to benchmark the performance of a bus line). So instead of trying to show how the times compare with the theoretica…

It's pretty remarkable how buses in other cities manage to adhere to the published schedule, but MUNI can't seem to manage. I've ridden buses all over the world, and MUNI is absolutely the worst at scheduling or latency. It's almost like they aren't even trying.

And even if you drop the requirement of "stick to the schedule", they still suck: you can have two lines running the same route up a major thoroughfare (e.g. 47/49 on Van Ness), and you'll still routinely get three busses back-to-back, followed by 45 minutes of delay. The only reasonable scheduling mechanism I've found for MUNI is to know exactly how far away the next bus is from your stop. Without real-time position information it's an unusable system, because arrivals are essentially a poisson process.

Re: Show HN: San Francisco MUNI Transit Delays, Visualized

#15

Post by justizin »

timr wrote: post #14
dougmccune wrote: post #8

Trying to compare against the published schedule isn't all that useful. As a resident of SF, I long ago gave up the idea that you could look up the scheduled arrival of a bus and plan around that. However, if a bus is supposed to be running every 12 minutes, that's the number you can plan around (or use to benchmark the performance of a bus line). So instead of trying to show how the times compare with the theoretica…

It's pretty remarkable how buses in other cities manage to adhere to the published schedule, but MUNI can't seem to manage. I've ridden buses all over the world, and MUNI is absolutely the worst at scheduling or latency. It's almost like they aren't even trying. And even if you drop the requirement of "stick to the schedule", they still suck: you can have two lines running the same route up a major thoroughfare (e.g.…

Muni's on-time percentage has actually improved in double-digits over the past couple of years, while the number of private buses blocking their stops has grown dramatically.

In general, SF is not an automotive friendly city, and Muni buses have to compete with lots of _epic_ _horrible_ drivers. As both a cyclist and a pedestrian, I feel much safer around Muni drivers than around tourist, shuttle, and other private bus drivers, or even out of town drivers like AC Transit Transbay or Golden Gate Transit. Those motherfuckers are cray.

Re: Show HN: San Francisco MUNI Transit Delays, Visualized

#17

Post by oneweirdtrick »

timr wrote: post #14
dougmccune wrote: post #8

Trying to compare against the published schedule isn't all that useful. As a resident of SF, I long ago gave up the idea that you could look up the scheduled arrival of a bus and plan around that. However, if a bus is supposed to be running every 12 minutes, that's the number you can plan around (or use to benchmark the performance of a bus line). So instead of trying to show how the times compare with the theoretica…

It's pretty remarkable how buses in other cities manage to adhere to the published schedule, but MUNI can't seem to manage. I've ridden buses all over the world, and MUNI is absolutely the worst at scheduling or latency. It's almost like they aren't even trying. And even if you drop the requirement of "stick to the schedule", they still suck: you can have two lines running the same route up a major thoroughfare (e.g.…

nextmuni.com is pretty good as far as real-time position information goes. I don't think I've even looked at a published schedule for the last decade.

Re: Show HN: San Francisco MUNI Transit Delays, Visualized

#18

Post by dougmccune »

timr wrote: post #14
dougmccune wrote: post #8

Trying to compare against the published schedule isn't all that useful. As a resident of SF, I long ago gave up the idea that you could look up the scheduled arrival of a bus and plan around that. However, if a bus is supposed to be running every 12 minutes, that's the number you can plan around (or use to benchmark the performance of a bus line). So instead of trying to show how the times compare with the theoretica…

It's pretty remarkable how buses in other cities manage to adhere to the published schedule, but MUNI can't seem to manage. I've ridden buses all over the world, and MUNI is absolutely the worst at scheduling or latency. It's almost like they aren't even trying. And even if you drop the requirement of "stick to the schedule", they still suck: you can have two lines running the same route up a major thoroughfare (e.g.…

I don't know if you rode Muni before they had GPS tracking vs after, but you're right in that it's the only thing that makes the system at all usable. I used to use Muni for my daily commute back before they added GPS to the vehicles and it was an absolute nightmare. At the end of my work day the bus line I took was supposed to run every 15 minutes. It was fairly common for me to have to wait 45 minutes for that "15 minute" bus (and watch 3-4 buses on the same line going the other way pass by). The worst thing is just simply not knowing how long your wait is. Now at least you can check how far away the next bus is and know that you're going to be waiting a ridiculously long time (and call a cab or go to a coffee shop or do something). Even if the delays haven't improved (I don't really know), just the ability to track the buses makes the whole system incredibly more usable.

Re: Show HN: San Francisco MUNI Transit Delays, Visualized

#19

Post by justizin »

timr wrote: post #2

Looking at some of the bus routes confirms something I've suspected about MUNI for a long time: most of the "delays" happen at the beginning of the route. I've watched bus drivers sit there for 10+ minutes past the departure time on many occasions, and there appears to be no penalty for the behavior. I don't know if the drivers are taking a mandated minimum break, waiting in response to orders from dispatch, or just…

What is likely the cause of this is that the previous bus left late due to external delays you weren't aware of, and the next bus waits to leave, even if it will leave late, so that the time between the two will be roughly the same.

I'm relatively confident Muni drivers are not intentionally leaving 10min early, since running an entire route 10min late makes it nearly impossible for them to use the restroom during the time between when they hit their last stop and must turn around and begin running again - a major complaint of the muni drivers' union.

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