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Show HN: HearthSim, an AI and game simulator for Hearthstone Heroes of Warcraft

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Re: Show HN: HearthSim, an AI and game simulator for Hearthstone Heroes of Warcraft

#11

Post by arrogant »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #6
ntaso wrote: post #2

HearthSim is a generic Hearthstone game simulator and AI, designed to run large numbers of simulated AI vs AI games in order to test and understand the values of various game mechanics and cards. Then I read an article about The Coin on OP's blog: http://buddypanda.com/?p=65 and I don't think that the simulator is that useful. Maybe I'm too dumb to understand this, but my intuitive idea is that a card like The Coin g…

Adding a 'pretty good' card to a deck means you might draw that card when you need a critical one. Even though 'The Coin' is good, it may not work (as well) with the rest of the cards. As you say, 1 card, 1 round can decide the game.

While this is true in the general case, The Coin is an extra card added to your hand at the beginning of the game and is never a part of your deck. It is purely beneficial.

Re: Show HN: HearthSim, an AI and game simulator for Hearthstone Heroes of Warcraft

#12

Post by _halgari »

I'm a bit against the code style: https://github.com/oyachai/HearthSim/blob/master/src/com/hea...

So the card that does the damage has to do the removal check for the minions? Talk about duplication of code. Wouldn't something like this be better:

engine.dealDamage(1).to(Category.EnemyMinions);

Re: Show HN: HearthSim, an AI and game simulator for Hearthstone Heroes of Warcraft

#13

Post by _halgari »

_halgari wrote: post #12

I'm a bit against the code style: https://github.com/oyachai/HearthSim/blob/master/src/com/hea... So the card that does the damage has to do the removal check for the minions? Talk about duplication of code. Wouldn't something like this be better: engine.dealDamage(1).to(Category.EnemyMinions);

Or better yet, write the entire thing in a logic programming DSL.

Re: Show HN: HearthSim, an AI and game simulator for Hearthstone Heroes of Warcraft

#14

Post by oyachai »

dtech wrote: post #9
NickPollard wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that article, he shows that giving the coin to p1 (the 2nd player, it's 0-based) gives a /disadvantage/ to p0 (the 1st player), so it is actually beneficial for the player who gets the coin.

In the simulator maybe, but according to Blizzard statistics going first has a small advantage (51%-53% winrate in feb 2014: http://www.hearthpwn.com/news/296-developer-interview-with-e... ). It was much greater before the extra card and coin was added.

That might be true. The advantage that The Coin gives you is highly dependent on the deck that you have. In that particular deck that I used in the simulations, the advantage is rather large. For a deck consisting of stronger (higher mana) cards, the advantage is much smaller. I think it's basically due to the fact that a 2-mana drop vs 1-mana drop is much stronger than a 7-mana drop vs a 6-mana drop.

Re: Show HN: HearthSim, an AI and game simulator for Hearthstone Heroes of Warcraft

#15

Post by MattRL »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #6
ntaso wrote: post #2

HearthSim is a generic Hearthstone game simulator and AI, designed to run large numbers of simulated AI vs AI games in order to test and understand the values of various game mechanics and cards. Then I read an article about The Coin on OP's blog: http://buddypanda.com/?p=65 and I don't think that the simulator is that useful. Maybe I'm too dumb to understand this, but my intuitive idea is that a card like The Coin g…

Adding a 'pretty good' card to a deck means you might draw that card when you need a critical one. Even though 'The Coin' is good, it may not work (as well) with the rest of the cards. As you say, 1 card, 1 round can decide the game.

In Hearthstone the coin is an extra card that the second player is always given at the start of the game, so no such disadvantage in Hearthstone.

Re: Show HN: HearthSim, an AI and game simulator for Hearthstone Heroes of Warcraft

#16

Post by oyachai »

_halgari wrote: post #12

I'm a bit against the code style: https://github.com/oyachai/HearthSim/blob/master/src/com/hea... So the card that does the damage has to do the removal check for the minions? Talk about duplication of code. Wouldn't something like this be better: engine.dealDamage(1).to(Category.EnemyMinions);

Good suggestion, let me think about that.

Re: Show HN: HearthSim, an AI and game simulator for Hearthstone Heroes of Warcraft

#17

Post by NickPollard »

dtech wrote: post #9
NickPollard wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that article, he shows that giving the coin to p1 (the 2nd player, it's 0-based) gives a /disadvantage/ to p0 (the 1st player), so it is actually beneficial for the player who gets the coin.

In the simulator maybe, but according to Blizzard statistics going first has a small advantage (51%-53% winrate in feb 2014: http://www.hearthpwn.com/news/296-developer-interview-with-e... ). It was much greater before the extra card and coin was added.

Yes, sorry I was referring to his numbers in the simulator rather than in the actual game.

In the game it depends on the deck - for some decks, it's more useful than others, either due to particular mana curves, or to triggered effects (the coin counts as a spell, so can trigger cards like Gadgetzan Auctioneer or Wild Pyromancer)

Re: Show HN: HearthSim, an AI and game simulator for Hearthstone Heroes of Warcraft

#18

Post by ntaso »

epriest wrote: post #7
ntaso wrote: post #2

HearthSim is a generic Hearthstone game simulator and AI, designed to run large numbers of simulated AI vs AI games in order to test and understand the values of various game mechanics and cards. Then I read an article about The Coin on OP's blog: http://buddypanda.com/?p=65 and I don't think that the simulator is that useful. Maybe I'm too dumb to understand this, but my intuitive idea is that a card like The Coin g…

> How come then, that the simulator says that the player actually wins more games without The Coin? This isn't what the results say. The win rate for the player who goes first ("Player 0") rose from 41% to 61% when the player who goes second ("Player 1") was not given The Coin. This is summarized in the text: > The Coin basically makes what used to be a first player advantage into a first player disadvantage. Not bad…

Ah, misunderstanding from my side. Thanks for clarifying.

Re: Show HN: HearthSim, an AI and game simulator for Hearthstone Heroes of Warcraft

#19

Post by king_jester »

ntaso wrote: post #2

HearthSim is a generic Hearthstone game simulator and AI, designed to run large numbers of simulated AI vs AI games in order to test and understand the values of various game mechanics and cards. Then I read an article about The Coin on OP's blog: http://buddypanda.com/?p=65 and I don't think that the simulator is that useful. Maybe I'm too dumb to understand this, but my intuitive idea is that a card like The Coin g…

> Maybe I'm too dumb to understand this, but my intuitive idea is that a card like The Coin gives you various advantages and no disadvantages, since it is an extra card that comes for free and gives you more flexibility.

The Coin does indeed give you advantages with no downside. However, the reason why you get the coin has to do with the mechanics of Hearthstone. In the case where The Coin didn't exist, you would be at a severe disadvantage if you didn't go first.

In Hearthstone, since you can generally control where your minions attack, going first gives you tempo. If your opponent didn't have the coin, as the player going first you could permanently maintain your tempo and win with regularity (depending on what cards you draw). In card games it is important that tempo be something that can change in the course of the game in order to make things more fair.

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