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Show HN: Instant confirmation via Bitcoin payment protocol

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Re: Show HN: Instant confirmation via Bitcoin payment protocol

#11

Post by tyho »

BrokenPipe wrote: post #9
tyho wrote: post #8

Which merchants currently accept your key for instant confirmations? From the bitcoin wiki: [green addresses] are generally considered a bad idea and not advisable to implement.

An ATM bitcoin to cash manufacturer is testing the functionality right now and another one is planning to integrate it when they implement the payment protocol. There's also other users that can check either inside the GreenAddress wallet or at https://greenaddress.it/instant it's called GreenAddress because when I thought about the concept, end of 2012 beginning of 2013 it wasn't yet associated with the bad reputati…

How could you prevent somebody signing a transaction using your service, waiting until the nLockTime has expired, then creating a transaction that is not signed by you but valid due to the nLockTime expiry? They would then be in a position to double spend because they could use a transaction that is verified by you to buy something instantly (cash from an ATM for example) and redirect the same funds back to their own control using the single signature transaction with a high chance of success.

Re: Show HN: Instant confirmation via Bitcoin payment protocol

#12

Post by LyndsySimon »

wdewind wrote: post #10
BrokenPipe wrote: post #2

Hello:) Author of the BIP draft for the Instant Confirmation Payment Protocol aka BIP70 extension and founder of GreenAddress. You can find the draft here https://github.com/greenaddress/bips/blob/bip-payment-reques... Bitcoin dev mailing list discussion http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.bitcoin.devel/5628 Reddit discussion http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/284me8/instant_conf... The aim of this extension i…

It seems that much of the "bitcoin is great because it is feeless" stuff is going to get eaten up by the services/fraud reduction layer put on top of it, by stuff like this. Right now, including miner fees, it seems like the transaction cost of bitcoin is actually as high, if not higher, than most credit cards. How do you see the fees finalizing? Will there still be a significant cost reduction for in person transact…

Some of those things are worth paying for. The revolutionary thing about Bitcoin (from a financial systems perspective) is that those things are optional. If I don't want or need instant confirms, I don't have to use them.

Another important thing to note is that you're likely a member of a very privileged class, by virtue of being on HN. You likely have a bank account and a credit card. Not everyone is so lucky, and Bitcoin serves many of the same needs you fulfill with the traditional financial system.

Then you have remittance. Imagine you are a Somali immigrant living in Michigan, and you'd like to send money to your brother in Xamar. How do you do that? It's legal, but to my knowledge no US Bank operates in the region. Bitcoin world's as easily to your brother as it does to anyone else.

Re: Show HN: Instant confirmation via Bitcoin payment protocol

#13

Post by LyndsySimon »

dublinben wrote: post #5

I would be incredibly careful of trusting any new BTC trust protocols this week, with the ongoing 51% threat from GHash. http://arstechnica.com/security/2014/06/bitcoin-security-gua...

Ongoing? Their network skate had dropped substantially.

Re: Show HN: Instant confirmation via Bitcoin payment protocol

#14

Post by BrokenPipe »

tyho wrote: post #11
BrokenPipe wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An ATM bitcoin to cash manufacturer is testing the functionality right now and another one is planning to integrate it when they implement the payment protocol. There's also other users that can check either inside the GreenAddress wallet or at https://greenaddress.it/instant it's called GreenAddress because when I thought about the concept, end of 2012 beginning of 2013 it wasn't yet associated with the bad reputati…

How could you prevent somebody signing a transaction using your service, waiting until the nLockTime has expired, then creating a transaction that is not signed by you but valid due to the nLockTime expiry? They would then be in a position to double spend because they could use a transaction that is verified by you to buy something instantly (cash from an ATM for example) and redirect the same funds back to their own…

We only provide instant confirmations for bitcoins we know that are going to get included in a block long before the nlocktime will expire allowing you to spend them.

Re: Show HN: Instant confirmation via Bitcoin payment protocol

#15

Post by dublinben »

LyndsySimon wrote: post #12
wdewind wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems that much of the "bitcoin is great because it is feeless" stuff is going to get eaten up by the services/fraud reduction layer put on top of it, by stuff like this. Right now, including miner fees, it seems like the transaction cost of bitcoin is actually as high, if not higher, than most credit cards. How do you see the fees finalizing? Will there still be a significant cost reduction for in person transact…

Some of those things are worth paying for. The revolutionary thing about Bitcoin (from a financial systems perspective) is that those things are optional. If I don't want or need instant confirms, I don't have to use them. Another important thing to note is that you're likely a member of a very privileged class, by virtue of being on HN. You likely have a bank account and a credit card. Not everyone is so lucky, and…

Bitcoin users are an even more privileged class of the already privileged population. They have regular access to a private computer, and robust internet access. That is not the case for most people in the world.

Re: Show HN: Instant confirmation via Bitcoin payment protocol

#16

Post by [deleted] »

LyndsySimon wrote: post #12
wdewind wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems that much of the "bitcoin is great because it is feeless" stuff is going to get eaten up by the services/fraud reduction layer put on top of it, by stuff like this. Right now, including miner fees, it seems like the transaction cost of bitcoin is actually as high, if not higher, than most credit cards. How do you see the fees finalizing? Will there still be a significant cost reduction for in person transact…

Some of those things are worth paying for. The revolutionary thing about Bitcoin (from a financial systems perspective) is that those things are optional. If I don't want or need instant confirms, I don't have to use them. Another important thing to note is that you're likely a member of a very privileged class, by virtue of being on HN. You likely have a bank account and a credit card. Not everyone is so lucky, and…

[deleted]

Re: Show HN: Instant confirmation via Bitcoin payment protocol

#17

Post by BrokenPipe »

dublinben wrote: post #15
LyndsySimon wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of those things are worth paying for. The revolutionary thing about Bitcoin (from a financial systems perspective) is that those things are optional. If I don't want or need instant confirms, I don't have to use them. Another important thing to note is that you're likely a member of a very privileged class, by virtue of being on HN. You likely have a bank account and a credit card. Not everyone is so lucky, and…

Bitcoin users are an even more privileged class of the already privileged population. They have regular access to a private computer, and robust internet access. That is not the case for most people in the world.

Do you think the banking industry will support the unbanked faster than a stable and accessible internet will reach them?

Re: Show HN: Instant confirmation via Bitcoin payment protocol

#18

Post by tyho »

BrokenPipe wrote: post #14
tyho wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How could you prevent somebody signing a transaction using your service, waiting until the nLockTime has expired, then creating a transaction that is not signed by you but valid due to the nLockTime expiry? They would then be in a position to double spend because they could use a transaction that is verified by you to buy something instantly (cash from an ATM for example) and redirect the same funds back to their own…

We only provide instant confirmations for bitcoins we know that are going to get included in a block long before the nlocktime will expire allowing you to spend them.

How long before, because that would make it impossible for people to spend their coins at all during that period, which could be annoying.

Also, does this mean that to verify a transaction can be considered instant, the merchant has to check with your servers and there is no way of verifying this independently? Isn't this a serious privacy problem?

Re: Show HN: Instant confirmation via Bitcoin payment protocol

#19

Post by wdewind »

LyndsySimon wrote: post #12
wdewind wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems that much of the "bitcoin is great because it is feeless" stuff is going to get eaten up by the services/fraud reduction layer put on top of it, by stuff like this. Right now, including miner fees, it seems like the transaction cost of bitcoin is actually as high, if not higher, than most credit cards. How do you see the fees finalizing? Will there still be a significant cost reduction for in person transact…

Some of those things are worth paying for. The revolutionary thing about Bitcoin (from a financial systems perspective) is that those things are optional. If I don't want or need instant confirms, I don't have to use them. Another important thing to note is that you're likely a member of a very privileged class, by virtue of being on HN. You likely have a bank account and a credit card. Not everyone is so lucky, and…

> Some of those things are worth paying for. The revolutionary thing about Bitcoin (from a financial systems perspective) is that those things are optional. If I don't want or need instant confirms, I don't have to use them.

Sorry, I think you missed the point of my question. For the use case I'm talking about, which is PoS, I don't see how those things are optional at all.

Re: Show HN: Instant confirmation via Bitcoin payment protocol

#20

Post by wdewind »

BrokenPipe wrote: post #17
dublinben wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin users are an even more privileged class of the already privileged population. They have regular access to a private computer, and robust internet access. That is not the case for most people in the world.

Do you think the banking industry will support the unbanked faster than a stable and accessible internet will reach them?

> Do you think the banking industry will support the unbanked faster than a stable and accessible internet will reach them?

I would guess so. It's unlikely that big, stable telco companies get created without banks.

Edit: and also, BrokenPipe, I'd really like to hear your thoughts on my original question since you are the author here...

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