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Show HN: Play poker with LLMs, or watch them play against each other

llmholdem.com

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Re: Show HN: Play poker with LLMs, or watch them play against each other

#11

Post by postpriorx »

cowthulhu wrote: post #9
lowbatt wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the LLMs would get crushed

To expand on this - an LLM will try to play (and reason) like a person would, while a solver simply crunches the possibility space for the mathematically optimal move. It’s similar to how an LLM can sometimes play chess on a reasonably high (but not world-class) level, while Stockfish (the chess solver) can easily crush even the best human player in the world.

How does a poker solver select bet size? Doesn't this depend on posteriors on the opponent's 'policy' + hand estimation?

Re: Show HN: Play poker with LLMs, or watch them play against each other

#12

Post by bogzz »

cowthulhu wrote: post #9
lowbatt wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the LLMs would get crushed

To expand on this - an LLM will try to play (and reason) like a person would, while a solver simply crunches the possibility space for the mathematically optimal move. It’s similar to how an LLM can sometimes play chess on a reasonably high (but not world-class) level, while Stockfish (the chess solver) can easily crush even the best human player in the world.

How would an LLM play like a human would? I kind of doubt that there is enough recounting of poker hands or transcription of filmed poker games in the training data to imbue a human-like decision pattern.

Re: Show HN: Play poker with LLMs, or watch them play against each other

#13

Post by DiscourseFan »

cowthulhu wrote: post #9
lowbatt wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the LLMs would get crushed

To expand on this - an LLM will try to play (and reason) like a person would, while a solver simply crunches the possibility space for the mathematically optimal move. It’s similar to how an LLM can sometimes play chess on a reasonably high (but not world-class) level, while Stockfish (the chess solver) can easily crush even the best human player in the world.

Unlike Chess, in poker you don’t have perfect information, so there’s no real way to optimize it.

Re: Show HN: Play poker with LLMs, or watch them play against each other

#15

Post by boscillator »

postpriorx wrote: post #11
cowthulhu wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To expand on this - an LLM will try to play (and reason) like a person would, while a solver simply crunches the possibility space for the mathematically optimal move. It’s similar to how an LLM can sometimes play chess on a reasonably high (but not world-class) level, while Stockfish (the chess solver) can easily crush even the best human player in the world.

How does a poker solver select bet size? Doesn't this depend on posteriors on the opponent's 'policy' + hand estimation?

No, I'm not super certain, but I believe most solvers are trained to be game theory optimal (GTO), which means they assume every other player is also playing GTO. This means there is no strategy which beats them in the long run, but they may not be playing the absolute best strategy.

Re: Show HN: Play poker with LLMs, or watch them play against each other

#17

Post by tim-kt »

DiscourseFan wrote: post #13
cowthulhu wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To expand on this - an LLM will try to play (and reason) like a person would, while a solver simply crunches the possibility space for the mathematically optimal move. It’s similar to how an LLM can sometimes play chess on a reasonably high (but not world-class) level, while Stockfish (the chess solver) can easily crush even the best human player in the world.

Unlike Chess, in poker you don’t have perfect information, so there’s no real way to optimize it.

You can still optimize for the expectation value, which is also essentially poker strategy.

Re: Show HN: Play poker with LLMs, or watch them play against each other

#18

Post by sejje »

mashlol wrote: post #4

I'm not an expert, but as I understand it there are existing solvers for poker/holdem? Perhaps one of the players could be a traditional solver to see how the LLMs fare against those?

The solvers don't typically work in real time, I don't think. They take a while to crunch a hand.

Re: Show HN: Play poker with LLMs, or watch them play against each other

#20

Post by neko_ranger »

Thank you, I'll try to grab a table when it resets :) ! I've been getting into poker (always wanted to) since I found a lecture series from John Hopkins, and severely disappointed by my options to play online in NY (real or fake money). I just want to get reps in
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