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Show HN: Lumier – Run macOS VMs in a Docker

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Re: Show HN: Lumier – Run macOS VMs in a Docker

#11

Post by frabonacci »

nottorp wrote: post #4

So, since the host is mac os, you need to run a linux VM to be able to quickly instantiate a mac os VM? With Apple's RAM prices?

Not quite, there's no need to run a Linux VM on macOS just to spin up macOS VMs.

Since the host is already macOS, we leverage the Apple Virtualization Framework (Vz) directly via a lightweight background service (lume). The Docker container (Lumier) acts purely as a frontend and delivery mechanism for managing and launching VMs — there's no nested virtualization or Linux VM involved.

That said, you're absolutely right that macOS hardware isn’t cheap, and RAM can be a real constraint. If you're running multiple VMs or aiming for production-scale setups, options like Scaleway’s M4 Mac minis or EC2 Mac Metal instances offer more headroom.

Also worth noting: while Lumier supports virtualizing Linux VMs too, if your use case is only Linux, there are far more cost-effective options using KVM on Linux hosts.

Re: Show HN: Lumier – Run macOS VMs in a Docker

#12

Post by RobMurray »

nottorp wrote: post #4

So, since the host is mac os, you need to run a linux VM to be able to quickly instantiate a mac os VM? With Apple's RAM prices?

Docker does seem to be an unnecessary overhead considering it's reliance on a Linux VM. What does Docker bring to the table that couldn't easily be replaced with a native Mac app?

Re: Show HN: Lumier – Run macOS VMs in a Docker

#13

Post by nottorp »

RobMurray wrote: post #12
nottorp wrote: post #4

So, since the host is mac os, you need to run a linux VM to be able to quickly instantiate a mac os VM? With Apple's RAM prices?

Docker does seem to be an unnecessary overhead considering it's reliance on a Linux VM. What does Docker bring to the table that couldn't easily be replaced with a native Mac app?

That was my point, and that was the Linux VM dependency that the OP doesn't realize exists.

Also there's some permanently running service. What's the point, to save 30 milliseconds out of the time to set up a VM which is certainly measured in tens of seconds?

Re: Show HN: Lumier – Run macOS VMs in a Docker

#14

Post by notpushkin »

frabonacci wrote: post #8
mynegation wrote: post #3

From what I understand VM does _not_ run in docker. The management interface does and connects to the VM running on macOS ARM host via Apple Virtualization Framework.

Correct. Docker in this case acts more as a delivery and management plane, rather than providing process isolation. Similar to how dockur/windows or qemus/qemu rely on --device=/dev/kvm to spin up VMs on Linux hosts, we use a background service that interfaces with Apple’s Virtualization Framework (Vz) to provision real VMs on the macOS host. The container connects to this service via host.docker.internal, allowing f…

The title is a bit misleading then :)

What’s the difference between this vs just using your lume CLI? Right now it feels like a worse interface to lume, but maybe I’m not getting a use case for this.

Also, any thoughts on https://github.com/cirruslabs/tart? (alas, not open source)

Re: Show HN: Lumier – Run macOS VMs in a Docker

#15

Post by notpushkin »

frabonacci wrote: post #11
nottorp wrote: post #4

So, since the host is mac os, you need to run a linux VM to be able to quickly instantiate a mac os VM? With Apple's RAM prices?

Not quite, there's no need to run a Linux VM on macOS just to spin up macOS VMs. Since the host is already macOS, we leverage the Apple Virtualization Framework (Vz) directly via a lightweight background service (lume). The Docker container (Lumier) acts purely as a frontend and delivery mechanism for managing and launching VMs — there's no nested virtualization or Linux VM involved. That said, you're absolutely righ…

Docker uses a Linux VM to run on macOS.

Re: Show HN: Lumier – Run macOS VMs in a Docker

#16

Post by frabonacci »

helpfulContrib wrote: post #6

I already do this with UTM. Whats the difference? Worth converting?

A couple of key differences are that Lumier provides browser-based desktop streaming via noVNC and a Docker‑based, CLI/headless management plane - along with both ephemeral and persistent 'containers', which are especially useful for CI or computer-use AI agent workflows and evals.

Re: Show HN: Lumier – Run macOS VMs in a Docker

#18

Post by frabonacci »

notpushkin wrote: post #14
frabonacci wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct. Docker in this case acts more as a delivery and management plane, rather than providing process isolation. Similar to how dockur/windows or qemus/qemu rely on --device=/dev/kvm to spin up VMs on Linux hosts, we use a background service that interfaces with Apple’s Virtualization Framework (Vz) to provision real VMs on the macOS host. The container connects to this service via host.docker.internal, allowing f…

The title is a bit misleading then :) What’s the difference between this vs just using your lume CLI? Right now it feels like a worse interface to lume, but maybe I’m not getting a use case for this. Also, any thoughts on https://github.com/cirruslabs/tart ? (alas, not open source)

You’re right, Lumier might seem similar to Lume CLI, but it adds browser-based desktop streaming via noVNC and integrates with Docker for easier management, which is a familiar interface for many developers. Since our parent project C/ua will use KVM-based containers on x86/x64 hosts, aligning to a container interface here seems a natural step for us. Docker also allows packaging noVNC as a self-contained dependency, streamlining setup for some users.

On a comparison with Tart, UTM, Lima, we actually touch it in this GitHub discussion: https://github.com/trycua/cua/issues/10

Re: Show HN: Lumier – Run macOS VMs in a Docker

#19

Post by frabonacci »

nottorp wrote: post #13
RobMurray wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Docker does seem to be an unnecessary overhead considering it's reliance on a Linux VM. What does Docker bring to the table that couldn't easily be replaced with a native Mac app?

That was my point, and that was the Linux VM dependency that the OP doesn't realize exists. Also there's some permanently running service. What's the point, to save 30 milliseconds out of the time to set up a VM which is certainly measured in tens of seconds?

The primary benefit here is automation and ease of management, especially for CI or AI agent workflows, rather than saving tiny amounts of time on VM setup. Docker's role is to offer a consistent and familiar management interface, which can be useful for automation and scaling, not for shaving milliseconds off VM boot times

Re: Show HN: Lumier – Run macOS VMs in a Docker

#20

Post by frabonacci »

RobMurray wrote: post #12
nottorp wrote: post #4

So, since the host is mac os, you need to run a linux VM to be able to quickly instantiate a mac os VM? With Apple's RAM prices?

Docker does seem to be an unnecessary overhead considering it's reliance on a Linux VM. What does Docker bring to the table that couldn't easily be replaced with a native Mac app?

Totally get your point. Docker isn’t about performance here. It’s just used as a management interface to connect to VMs running directly on the macOS host via Apple’s Vz. We went with this approach for Lume because Docker offers a familiar, automation-friendly workflow—great for CI, AI agents, and bundling things like noVNC
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