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Show HN: SchemafreeSQL – Data, Fluid as Code

schemafreesql.com

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Re: Show HN: SchemafreeSQL – Data, Fluid as Code

#11

Post by mgkimsal »

endymi0n wrote: post #8

Having delivered projects with about a dozen different relational and "schemaless" databases over the course of 15 years, I'm proud to say I'm siding 100% with this article by now: https://orangematter.solarwinds.com/2015/02/24/schemaless-da... > There’s no such thing as a schemaless database. I know, lots of people want a schemaless database, and lots of companies are promoting their products as schemaless DBMSs. An…

I heard it put more succinctly as "schema on read" and "schema on write". "Schemaless" is really "schema on read" - you're making some assumptions about the structure/values you're reading out, and you plan to take specific actions based on those. "Schema on write" is... create db/table/column defs up front, and force the data adhere to that schema, so that when you read it out, there's no question about whether it conforms to expectations or not.

Per the article you linked to, yes, there's always a schema. When/how you decide to verify the assumptions about the data is the question.

Re: Show HN: SchemafreeSQL – Data, Fluid as Code

#12

Post by cryptonector »

endymi0n wrote: post #8

Having delivered projects with about a dozen different relational and "schemaless" databases over the course of 15 years, I'm proud to say I'm siding 100% with this article by now: https://orangematter.solarwinds.com/2015/02/24/schemaless-da... > There’s no such thing as a schemaless database. I know, lots of people want a schemaless database, and lots of companies are promoting their products as schemaless DBMSs. An…

It's also true that database schemas cause problems (I don't mean as in "versus schemalessness") because knowledge of schemas gets embedded into code.

Re: Show HN: SchemafreeSQL – Data, Fluid as Code

#14

Post by ano88888 »

You can sense the dynamics or tension between Eric(their techinical co-founder) and Dean,OP. There seems to be a very distinct separation like Eric will not answer questions on HN and Eric wants Dean to point out demo apps are not created by him (either it is credit issue or perceived lower quality issue). There is no we or us. When there is a strong trust or good team dynamics, there is no such strong indiviudal characteristics

Re: Show HN: SchemafreeSQL – Data, Fluid as Code

#15

Post by dfragnito »

ano88888 wrote: post #14

You can sense the dynamics or tension between Eric(their techinical co-founder) and Dean,OP. There seems to be a very distinct separation like Eric will not answer questions on HN and Eric wants Dean to point out demo apps are not created by him (either it is credit issue or perceived lower quality issue). There is no we or us. When there is a strong trust or good team dynamics, there is no such strong indiviudal cha…

Eric and I have been together since 1997 solving problems with this thing called the Internet. Dynamics yes you can call it that. The comment was tongue and cheek about the code. Eric was unavailable to respond to comments in a timely manner so I let be known. Read into it as you want.

Re: Show HN: SchemafreeSQL – Data, Fluid as Code

#16

Post by vincnetas »

cryptonector wrote: post #12
endymi0n wrote: post #8

Having delivered projects with about a dozen different relational and "schemaless" databases over the course of 15 years, I'm proud to say I'm siding 100% with this article by now: https://orangematter.solarwinds.com/2015/02/24/schemaless-da... > There’s no such thing as a schemaless database. I know, lots of people want a schemaless database, and lots of companies are promoting their products as schemaless DBMSs. An…

It's also true that database schemas cause problems (I don't mean as in "versus schemalessness") because knowledge of schemas gets embedded into code.

but knowledge about db with schema is embedded in ... well schema. no?

Re: Show HN: SchemafreeSQL – Data, Fluid as Code

#18

Post by jmull »

endymi0n wrote: post #8

Having delivered projects with about a dozen different relational and "schemaless" databases over the course of 15 years, I'm proud to say I'm siding 100% with this article by now: https://orangematter.solarwinds.com/2015/02/24/schemaless-da... > There’s no such thing as a schemaless database. I know, lots of people want a schemaless database, and lots of companies are promoting their products as schemaless DBMSs. An…

This is true, but I want to point out that conventional DBMS DDLs are horrible schema definition languages, yet are placed at the center of schema design by the DBMS.

They are horrible because because they hopelessly mix in all kinds of other concerns -- which is also why they are difficult to avoid.

IMO, where a schemaless database like this would be useful is not to avoid having a schema, but to allow a clean source-of-truth schema to be used, independent of all of the other concerns related to data access and storage.

(I'm commenting generally, BTW, not necessarily on this particular schemaless database.)

Re: Show HN: SchemafreeSQL – Data, Fluid as Code

#19

Post by dfragnito »

jmull wrote: post #18
endymi0n wrote: post #8

Having delivered projects with about a dozen different relational and "schemaless" databases over the course of 15 years, I'm proud to say I'm siding 100% with this article by now: https://orangematter.solarwinds.com/2015/02/24/schemaless-da... > There’s no such thing as a schemaless database. I know, lots of people want a schemaless database, and lots of companies are promoting their products as schemaless DBMSs. An…

This is true, but I want to point out that conventional DBMS DDLs are horrible schema definition languages, yet are placed at the center of schema design by the DBMS. They are horrible because because they hopelessly mix in all kinds of other concerns -- which is also why they are difficult to avoid. IMO, where a schemaless database like this would be useful is not to avoid having a schema, but to allow a clean sourc…

SFSQL does have a rules API not implemented in our Hosted Offering. We have plans to enable it.

Re: Show HN: SchemafreeSQL – Data, Fluid as Code

#20

Post by kw123 »

morph123 wrote: post #17

Why do people hate schemas so much? It is as silly as hating types in programming languages. It helps you to avoid doing stupid stuff.

I have exactly the same feeling. Schema vs schemaless is like static typed vs dynamic language. The extreme is java vs JavaScript. With JavaScript, you have all freedom to construct objects with whatever properties, then you pay with hard-to-detect runtime errors. That is why people are going for TypeScript nowadays. I have learned this hard way, as I had hated Java so much sometime ago. For that I used quite bit Groovy, but later I had to refactor some with Java just for static typing, to avoid running time problems in critical area.
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