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Show HN: An iPad app to teach kids how to program

news.ycombinator.com

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Re: Show HN: An iPad app to teach kids how to program

#11

Post by klausa »

I always wondered how successful those apps and languages (Logo etc.) are as learning tools.

It seems like a great idea - you make colorful apps, that are easy to fiddle with and you sneak in coding under 'move dinosaur few centimeters to the left' cover - but 'real' programming is not very much like this - it might create false illusion to those children, that it's and fun and easy, and you get real programs working after 5 minutes.

Illusion, that will break to pieces when confronted with real world - and I think that disillusionment might actually discourage kids.

Re: Show HN: An iPad app to teach kids how to program

#12

Post by xyzzyz »

klausa wrote: post #11

I always wondered how successful those apps and languages (Logo etc.) are as learning tools. It seems like a great idea - you make colorful apps, that are easy to fiddle with and you sneak in coding under 'move dinosaur few centimeters to the left' cover - but 'real' programming is not very much like this - it might create false illusion to those children, that it's and fun and easy, and you get real programs working…

Of course real life is not like this -- but it's not that bad either. You could say the same thing about anything -- why teach kids play basketball, as it might create false illusion that they will master it after few games? Why teach kids art, as their drawings will be crap judged by adult artist standards? Why teach kids anything?

The educational programs serve the purpose of accustoming kids to challenges that await them in real life, and I believe that the prepared ones will be served with the less severe blow.

Re: Show HN: An iPad app to teach kids how to program

#13

Post by smj2118 »

klausa wrote: post #11

I always wondered how successful those apps and languages (Logo etc.) are as learning tools. It seems like a great idea - you make colorful apps, that are easy to fiddle with and you sneak in coding under 'move dinosaur few centimeters to the left' cover - but 'real' programming is not very much like this - it might create false illusion to those children, that it's and fun and easy, and you get real programs working…

That's an interesting comment, it sounds like you've experienced the frustrations of programming first hand. Basically what you're talking about is the issue we want to solve. There will always be frustrations around getting your code working (some would say that's the fun of it) but we hope to create something that will eliminate a lot of the other non-code problems that stop people from moving on to the next step.

What we want to do next is add in a way to publish your code to the web through our app (which may morph into a web app if that turns out to be more appropriate). At that point, in my opinion, a user would be doing real programming since she or he would be creating something in code and distributing it to others for use.

Re: Show HN: An iPad app to teach kids how to program

#14

Post by drhowarddrfine »

I will never understand why anyone would want to teach little kids to program. Especially those who barely know how to add and subtract. I know of no upwardly mobile, reasonably successful adult, 18+, who knows how to program. This makes as much sense as teaching them brain surgery.

Re: Show HN: An iPad app to teach kids how to program

#15

Post by smj2118 »

jocastette wrote: post #10

Getting a programming environment is indeed a barrier which I have experienced a number of times. This contrasts with schooldays when I could start writing a basic program simply by switching the computer on. Why don't Apple, Microsoft etc. package the stuff you need to get start programming with their OSes? (So one could begin learning with 5 mouse clicks or less.) Sorry if this is a hopelessly naive question

I think programmers themselves have a bias against getting started easily. Everyone knows how much they had to struggle to get their environment set up so they expect it to be a hard problem and don't consider it necessary to solve when building an OS. I imagine it's simply not a priority although I wish it was.

Re: Show HN: An iPad app to teach kids how to program

#16

Post by sc00ter »

jocastette wrote: post #10

Getting a programming environment is indeed a barrier which I have experienced a number of times. This contrasts with schooldays when I could start writing a basic program simply by switching the computer on. Why don't Apple, Microsoft etc. package the stuff you need to get start programming with their OSes? (So one could begin learning with 5 mouse clicks or less.) Sorry if this is a hopelessly naive question

"Why don't Apple, Microsoft etc. package the stuff you need to get start programming with their OSes?"

They do, or at least Apple does with the inclusion of a version of Ruby as standard in OSX, various shell scripting options, and Xcode available for free from the Mac App Store (although I would question how easy that is for a novice to get started with). Windows? Not so much.

Re: Show HN: An iPad app to teach kids how to program

#17

Post by smj2118 »

drhowarddrfine wrote: post #14

I will never understand why anyone would want to teach little kids to program. Especially those who barely know how to add and subtract. I know of no upwardly mobile, reasonably successful adult, 18+, who knows how to program. This makes as much sense as teaching them brain surgery.

Exactly! The fact that it seems so unattainable to you is the problem we are trying to solve.

Being a programmer myself I know that it can be a challenging field but I also know that it's definitely something kids can do and enjoy as well.

I like the analogy to Legos- not every kid who plays with Legos will grow up to be an architect or civil engineer but they can gain a great deal of enjoyment out of doing a simpler version of what these people do professionally.

Re: Show HN: An iPad app to teach kids how to program

#18

Post by mover »

drhowarddrfine wrote: post #14

I will never understand why anyone would want to teach little kids to program. Especially those who barely know how to add and subtract. I know of no upwardly mobile, reasonably successful adult, 18+, who knows how to program. This makes as much sense as teaching them brain surgery.

I think you'll find plenty of upwardly mobile and reasonably successful adults on HN that know how to program. Many of the best started as little kids. And as software increasingly touches every aspect of our lives, knowing the basics of programming will be useful for understanding how things work in the world.

Brain surgery is a highly specialized discipline that takes years of preparation before the surgeon makes her first cut--Daisy the Dino is specifically trying to make programming less intimidating to learn with a lower barrier to early success.

Re: Show HN: An iPad app to teach kids how to program

#19

Post by ebf »

drhowarddrfine wrote: post #14

I will never understand why anyone would want to teach little kids to program. Especially those who barely know how to add and subtract. I know of no upwardly mobile, reasonably successful adult, 18+, who knows how to program. This makes as much sense as teaching them brain surgery.

I really enjoyed learning Logo in my 5th grade gifted program. I'm pretty sure that most of the class enjoyed it as well.

Re: Show HN: An iPad app to teach kids how to program

#20

Post by floggit »

I would move away from text-based programming and try a visual metaphor approach, especially on the ipad when touch/gesture are fundamentally easier for kids to learn, i.e. replace "grow" with growing animation of the dinosaur Take a look at what http://launchpadtoys.com/toontastic/ is doing for animation/story-telling.
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