Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Show HN: Retrocomputing with Clash: Haskell for FPGA Hardware Design

unsafeperform.io

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 32 posts

Re: Show HN: Retrocomputing with Clash: Haskell for FPGA Hardware Design

#11

Post by rowanG077 »

laydn wrote: post #10
rowanG077 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same could be said about ASM. You can complete any project with it, the tooling is very good. It will just take much longer and you will have to debug more. In that sense no language ever is important. The point of a language is to allow the developer to write code faster and in a more secure manner. In both of these clash is vastly superior to vhdl or verilog. Imagine a world were we would still be stuck with C…

But, HOW do you debug Clash? For example, what is the design and debug flow of using Clash to target a Xilinx FPGA? My guess is that you're going to tell me I will have to debug the generated Verilog code?

I've been using Clash for about 2 years now. I just debug the clash code. As in just use the normal Haskell test tooling. The only reason I ever read the generated HDL is when I make sure I have integrated another IP correctly.

Re: Show HN: Retrocomputing with Clash: Haskell for FPGA Hardware Design

#12

Post by gnull »

laydn wrote: post #8

I am having trouble understanding the usefulness of all these new pseudo-HDL languages. In all the projects that I've worked on, the choice of HDL (which was 95% of the time, Verilog, for the rest, VHDL), was never actually 'important'; the language features were never critical to the completion of the project. Verilog is fully adequate for any kind of serious HDL development. What mattered were, the tooling, IDEs, d…

Clash is not pseudo, it's actual HDL. Right now it compiles to Verilog, yes, but this is minor a technicality.

> the choice of HDL (which was 95% of the time, Verilog, for the rest, VHDL), was never actually 'important'; the language features were never critical to the completion of the project

Because both are equally bad, and have little meaningful difference in their features.

> Verilog is fully adequate for any kind of serious HDL development.

This confirms my past experience of interacting with hardware people. They have extremely low standard for their programming languages and tooling in general, and don't like reflecting on these too much. They just suck it up and do the job, no matter what.

My Verilog just quietly accepts the code which assigns values to a wire which is declared as input? I guess it's my fault, I will just be more careful in the future not to do that again.

My Verilog doesn't allow parametrizing modules with anything other than natural numbers? Well, I'll just duplicate code, that's how we always did it.

My Verilog has no types other than "wire" and "array of wires" (and also allows assigning array[2][3] to array[3][2] emitting no warning)? It's fine, I will just try to keep in mind what data I have in which wires and try to make sure I never mix things up.

My Verilog uses pseudo-imperative code with "assignments" in it to describe a network of flipflops with combinational logic between them? It's ok, I will just train my brain to convert between the two even though there's no good reason for Verilog to be like that.

My Verilog has constructions which are synthesizable only when used in one very specific way, instead of clearly differentiating between synthesizable (actual hardware) and un-synthesizable (imperative testing code)? It's ok, I will just remember the details.

My Verilog produces so much noise in the build logs that nobody actually reads it unless something breaks? I guess I just have to be more careful or write more testbenches.

> I just can not see how these new languages can be a serious alternative to Verilog/VHDL

This is learned helplessness.

Clash has better, more natural abstractions for the wires and flipflops. Combinational and sequential logic are clearly separated. It also uses many primitives of Haskell which make your code more compact, easier to read and verify. You can parameterize modules with anything, including other modules, this drastically reduces code duplication and lets you manage the code on a higher level (while still seeing how does it correspond to bits and wires).

Re: Show HN: Retrocomputing with Clash: Haskell for FPGA Hardware Design

#13

Post by gergoerdi »

laydn wrote: post #10
rowanG077 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same could be said about ASM. You can complete any project with it, the tooling is very good. It will just take much longer and you will have to debug more. In that sense no language ever is important. The point of a language is to allow the developer to write code faster and in a more secure manner. In both of these clash is vastly superior to vhdl or verilog. Imagine a world were we would still be stuck with C…

But, HOW do you debug Clash? For example, what is the design and debug flow of using Clash to target a Xilinx FPGA? My guess is that you're going to tell me I will have to debug the generated Verilog code?

Debugging via high-level simulation is something my book spends a lot of time on. If you look at the sample chapters, you can see that the same Clash code can also be compiled into software Haskell, which you can then interface with non-synthesizable test benches, such as an interactive SDL frontend. So you can take your HDL logic and run it directly, interactively in real time. You can play Pong by compiling the code as software.

One level lower, you can use Clash's signal-level simulator. Basically it gives you a synchronous stream of signal values, either as a lazy list (for "offline" simulation), or as an automaton that you can turn the crank on by feeding it the next clock cycle's inputs (for "online" simulation, i.e. where you want to do IO to compute the next input from the previous outputs). So at this level, you'd take your Pong circuit and use the automaton interface of the simulator to feed the virtual "pushbutton" states computed from e.g. keypresses, and then consume the output to do the rendering. Or simulate the whole circuit end-to-end and feed its output into a VGA interpreter, which you also get to write in Haskell.

If you need to debug at the Verilog level, you can use Clashilator (https://github.com/gergoerdi/clashilator) to automate FFI-ing into a Verilator-generated simulation.

Re: Show HN: Retrocomputing with Clash: Haskell for FPGA Hardware Design

#14

Post by laydn »

gnull wrote: post #12
laydn wrote: post #8

I am having trouble understanding the usefulness of all these new pseudo-HDL languages. In all the projects that I've worked on, the choice of HDL (which was 95% of the time, Verilog, for the rest, VHDL), was never actually 'important'; the language features were never critical to the completion of the project. Verilog is fully adequate for any kind of serious HDL development. What mattered were, the tooling, IDEs, d…

Clash is not pseudo, it's actual HDL. Right now it compiles to Verilog, yes, but this is minor a technicality. > the choice of HDL (which was 95% of the time, Verilog, for the rest, VHDL), was never actually 'important'; the language features were never critical to the completion of the project Because both are equally bad, and have little meaningful difference in their features. > Verilog is fully adequate for any k…

It's not that we have a low standard, it's that we are bound by the full suite of tools that are provided to us in order to achieve our design objective.

When I am close to tapeout and I am moving a single gate across a flip flop in order to extract the final few Mhz out of the design, and my formal equivalence checker only understands Verilog, I will have to use Verilog.

I suppose my benchmark in assessing the capabilities of this -or any- language and its ecosystem is the following : Can you use Clash in the design of a reasonably complex chip from scratch (HDL to tapeout)?

Re: Show HN: Retrocomputing with Clash: Haskell for FPGA Hardware Design

#15

Post by exdsq »

laydn wrote: post #8

I am having trouble understanding the usefulness of all these new pseudo-HDL languages. In all the projects that I've worked on, the choice of HDL (which was 95% of the time, Verilog, for the rest, VHDL), was never actually 'important'; the language features were never critical to the completion of the project. Verilog is fully adequate for any kind of serious HDL development. What mattered were, the tooling, IDEs, d…

I'm looking at it through another lens - a way to improve my intermediate haskell and learn about HDL. Maybe they're pushing for commercial use but there are alternative reasons to be interested in this too!

Re: Show HN: Retrocomputing with Clash: Haskell for FPGA Hardware Design

#16

Post by typon »

laydn wrote: post #14
gnull wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clash is not pseudo, it's actual HDL. Right now it compiles to Verilog, yes, but this is minor a technicality. > the choice of HDL (which was 95% of the time, Verilog, for the rest, VHDL), was never actually 'important'; the language features were never critical to the completion of the project Because both are equally bad, and have little meaningful difference in their features. > Verilog is fully adequate for any k…

It's not that we have a low standard, it's that we are bound by the full suite of tools that are provided to us in order to achieve our design objective. When I am close to tapeout and I am moving a single gate across a flip flop in order to extract the final few Mhz out of the design, and my formal equivalence checker only understands Verilog, I will have to use Verilog. I suppose my benchmark in assessing the capab…

Software people also have deadlines, less strict than hardware sometimes, but they still do. If people in Silicon Valley thought the same way as hardware folks, we would be using Java for all applications and Oracle databases. But instead we have a huge ecosystem of open source databases to choose from and and a plethora of languages designed for different tasks.

I worked at Intel designing tools for hardware people to use (I am also a hardware person, but I see the power of software) and it was years of hair pulling to get anywhere, even in the face of clear advantages being offered.

Why isn't there an open source simulator as powerful as vcs out there? Why don't we have open source timing analysis tools? Because the culture just doesn't encourage exploration in these areas. And if you try, people will just not take you seriously.

Re: Show HN: Retrocomputing with Clash: Haskell for FPGA Hardware Design

#17

Post by gnull »

laydn wrote: post #14
gnull wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clash is not pseudo, it's actual HDL. Right now it compiles to Verilog, yes, but this is minor a technicality. > the choice of HDL (which was 95% of the time, Verilog, for the rest, VHDL), was never actually 'important'; the language features were never critical to the completion of the project Because both are equally bad, and have little meaningful difference in their features. > Verilog is fully adequate for any k…

It's not that we have a low standard, it's that we are bound by the full suite of tools that are provided to us in order to achieve our design objective. When I am close to tapeout and I am moving a single gate across a flip flop in order to extract the final few Mhz out of the design, and my formal equivalence checker only understands Verilog, I will have to use Verilog. I suppose my benchmark in assessing the capab…

I don't know what is tapeout, but Clash can describe any circuit that Verilog can. If you wanted to, you could one-to-one translate the circuit descriptions between the two.

We could argue about the current state of tooling for Clash and its ability to work together with vendor-specific tools and other ecosystem stuff, I don't know much about this. But as a language Clash can do everything Verilog does.

Re: Show HN: Retrocomputing with Clash: Haskell for FPGA Hardware Design

#18

Post by tubby12345 »

gnull wrote: post #17
laydn wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that we have a low standard, it's that we are bound by the full suite of tools that are provided to us in order to achieve our design objective. When I am close to tapeout and I am moving a single gate across a flip flop in order to extract the final few Mhz out of the design, and my formal equivalence checker only understands Verilog, I will have to use Verilog. I suppose my benchmark in assessing the capab…

I don't know what is tapeout, but Clash can describe any circuit that Verilog can. If you wanted to, you could one-to-one translate the circuit descriptions between the two. We could argue about the current state of tooling for Clash and its ability to work together with vendor-specific tools and other ecosystem stuff, I don't know much about this. But as a language Clash can do everything Verilog does.

>I don't know what is tapeout

The person you're responding to isn't an FPGA dev (or at least not primarily). They're talking about verilog for ASIC design where the last step is is making the lithography mask that "tapes off" parts of the silicon substrate (like a painter tapes parts of a wall when painting).

I play in the space (Chisel and FIRRTL and CIRCT) so I agree with you but you're being far too dismissive of the people you're aiming to convert.

>But as a language Clash can do everything Verilog does.

Ironic since people say the exact same thing of Haskell and eg python and yet we still don't have wide Haskell adoption.

You have to deeply internalize that a PL or HDL is a tool. Thus, this position makes zero sense

>its ability to work together with vendor-specific tools and other ecosystem stuff, I don't know much about this

No one uses tools that don't fit somehow into their workflow. Further, if the users of the tool are happy with their current toolset then you have a very hard road to hoe in convincing them to adopt your tool.

Re: Show HN: Retrocomputing with Clash: Haskell for FPGA Hardware Design

#19

Post by tubby12345 »

rowanG077 wrote: post #11
laydn wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But, HOW do you debug Clash? For example, what is the design and debug flow of using Clash to target a Xilinx FPGA? My guess is that you're going to tell me I will have to debug the generated Verilog code?

I've been using Clash for about 2 years now. I just debug the clash code. As in just use the normal Haskell test tooling. The only reason I ever read the generated HDL is when I make sure I have integrated another IP correctly.

qq: i know that for HLS sometimes (most?) the generated HDL is 10x the number of resources (flip-flops?) compared to hand-written HDL. how bad is clash in this respect?

Re: Show HN: Retrocomputing with Clash: Haskell for FPGA Hardware Design

#20

Post by gnull »

tubby12345 wrote: post #18
gnull wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what is tapeout, but Clash can describe any circuit that Verilog can. If you wanted to, you could one-to-one translate the circuit descriptions between the two. We could argue about the current state of tooling for Clash and its ability to work together with vendor-specific tools and other ecosystem stuff, I don't know much about this. But as a language Clash can do everything Verilog does.

>I don't know what is tapeout The person you're responding to isn't an FPGA dev (or at least not primarily). They're talking about verilog for ASIC design where the last step is is making the lithography mask that "tapes off" parts of the silicon substrate (like a painter tapes parts of a wall when painting). I play in the space (Chisel and FIRRTL and CIRCT) so I agree with you but you're being far too dismissive of…

Sorry it it came out as dismissive. I only wanted to show that my claim is specifically about the language, not current state of tooling which I'm not as familiar with (and which is important).
Post reply on HN