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Show HN: SVG 3D Builder – Build 3D Models with SVG

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Re: Show HN: SVG 3D Builder – Build 3D Models with SVG

#11

Post by xigma »

wongarsu wrote: post #6
xigma wrote: post #2

It's unbelievably slow. I'm confident it's not the developer's fault. It serves as a good warning. It just goes to show that Web technology still has a long way to go. SVG (and to a lesser extent Canvas) are trainwrecks in terms of performance. It's really a sad story that HTML5 has been evangelized so strongly, yet even ten years later it can't hold a candle to Flash in many regards.

SVG is HTML for arbitrary 2d shapes (yes, technically XML). Writing a 3d engine with it is akin to rendering PNG images by arranging colored divs. It is a hack with much better existing alternatives.

It's not a "3D engine", it's basic line and shape drawing.

With SVG, you will easily run into the same performance issues with any kind of dynamic content, 3D or not.

With Canvas, you may or may not run into them, depending on how much content you have.

In either case, performance is terrible compared to what you can do in a native application.

Re: Show HN: SVG 3D Builder – Build 3D Models with SVG

#12

Post by xigma »

onion2k wrote: post #7

three.js has an SVG renderer that does a decent job - https://threejs.org/examples/#svg_sandbox

Dude, this is the kind of stuff I could run in realtime on an Amiga. Maybe not at the same resolution, but the resolution isn't the bottleneck in this demo either, I'm struggling to hit 40Hz at any scale.

Re: Show HN: SVG 3D Builder – Build 3D Models with SVG

#13

Post by kowdermeister »

xigma wrote: post #2

It's unbelievably slow. I'm confident it's not the developer's fault. It serves as a good warning. It just goes to show that Web technology still has a long way to go. SVG (and to a lesser extent Canvas) are trainwrecks in terms of performance. It's really a sad story that HTML5 has been evangelized so strongly, yet even ten years later it can't hold a candle to Flash in many regards.

It's slow because it's abusing what SVG can deliver. It's only a good warning in regards to avoid using the wrong tool for the job. If you want want 3D in the browser, then go WebGL.

> It's really a sad story that HTML5 has been evangelized so strongly, yet even ten years later it can't hold a candle to Flash in many regards.

Not sad at all. It needs to be evangelized more since it's clear that other solutions did not work. By other solutions I mean a private company design something and forces it on the world. (Flash, Java applets, Real Player, Shockwave...)

We have all the features flash had now (and had it for many years now)

Re: Show HN: SVG 3D Builder – Build 3D Models with SVG

#14

Post by phkahler »

onion2k wrote: post #7

three.js has an SVG renderer that does a decent job - https://threejs.org/examples/#svg_sandbox

>> three.js has an SVG renderer that does a decent job

And SolveSpace will let you export a CAD model to an html file with a built-in three.js viewer.

Re: Show HN: SVG 3D Builder – Build 3D Models with SVG

#15

Post by goatlover »

kowdermeister wrote: post #13
xigma wrote: post #2

It's unbelievably slow. I'm confident it's not the developer's fault. It serves as a good warning. It just goes to show that Web technology still has a long way to go. SVG (and to a lesser extent Canvas) are trainwrecks in terms of performance. It's really a sad story that HTML5 has been evangelized so strongly, yet even ten years later it can't hold a candle to Flash in many regards.

It's slow because it's abusing what SVG can deliver. It's only a good warning in regards to avoid using the wrong tool for the job. If you want want 3D in the browser, then go WebGL. > It's really a sad story that HTML5 has been evangelized so strongly, yet even ten years later it can't hold a candle to Flash in many regards. Not sad at all. It needs to be evangelized more since it's clear that other solutions did no…

Java was open source and Sun wanted Netscape to embed Java in their browser. According to Brendan Eich, Netscape considered having both JS and Java along with a canvas element both could draw on, but time constraints dictated otherwise. So Java ended up being used as a plugin.

Re: Show HN: SVG 3D Builder – Build 3D Models with SVG

#16

Post by kowdermeister »

xigma wrote: post #8
GijsjanB wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Euh... Yeah? Shoehorning SVG into 3D models ought to be slow. Manipulating DOM nodes for animation has it's limits. If you want 3D perf in the browser, use WebGL. The canvas can be quite fast if used right, but again, it's not the right tool for every job.

The problem is, the right tool does not exist on the Web. WebGL doesn't have very good support, especially on mobile. That's why one would choose to use SVG. Also, just to get it to do something requires a lot more expertise and code. Would this project have worked out better on Canvas? Yes, most certainly, but some people have to find out the hard way.

Padorn? Yeah, poor Opera mini users will suffer.

https://caniuse.com/#search=webgl

Re: Show HN: SVG 3D Builder – Build 3D Models with SVG

#17

Post by xigma »

kowdermeister wrote: post #13
xigma wrote: post #2

It's unbelievably slow. I'm confident it's not the developer's fault. It serves as a good warning. It just goes to show that Web technology still has a long way to go. SVG (and to a lesser extent Canvas) are trainwrecks in terms of performance. It's really a sad story that HTML5 has been evangelized so strongly, yet even ten years later it can't hold a candle to Flash in many regards.

It's slow because it's abusing what SVG can deliver. It's only a good warning in regards to avoid using the wrong tool for the job. If you want want 3D in the browser, then go WebGL. > It's really a sad story that HTML5 has been evangelized so strongly, yet even ten years later it can't hold a candle to Flash in many regards. Not sad at all. It needs to be evangelized more since it's clear that other solutions did no…

> We have all the features flash had now (and had it for many years now)

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, yet you're evangelizing HTML5, that's the problem.

Talk to somebody who tried to bring Video or 2D(!) animated content over from Flash to the Web. It was (and remains) a total clusterfuck. Not just because of performance but because of compatibility. Flash just worked. Web video or (god forbid) WebRTC are still problematic.

That's not to say that I want Flash back, but ignoring that it was proprietary, it was the better technology.

Re: Show HN: SVG 3D Builder – Build 3D Models with SVG

#18

Post by xigma »

kowdermeister wrote: post #16
xigma wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is, the right tool does not exist on the Web. WebGL doesn't have very good support, especially on mobile. That's why one would choose to use SVG. Also, just to get it to do something requires a lot more expertise and code. Would this project have worked out better on Canvas? Yes, most certainly, but some people have to find out the hard way.

Padorn? Yeah, poor Opera mini users will suffer. https://caniuse.com/#search=webgl

The fact that a browser supports WebGL tells you nothing about which devices support it.

It all depends on the GPU and its drivers, browsers have blacklists of GPUs, but even if your device is not blacklisted, it may simply screw up, especially on mobile.

Re: Show HN: SVG 3D Builder – Build 3D Models with SVG

#19

Post by lucideer »

xigma wrote: post #8
GijsjanB wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Euh... Yeah? Shoehorning SVG into 3D models ought to be slow. Manipulating DOM nodes for animation has it's limits. If you want 3D perf in the browser, use WebGL. The canvas can be quite fast if used right, but again, it's not the right tool for every job.

The problem is, the right tool does not exist on the Web. WebGL doesn't have very good support, especially on mobile. That's why one would choose to use SVG. Also, just to get it to do something requires a lot more expertise and code. Would this project have worked out better on Canvas? Yes, most certainly, but some people have to find out the hard way.

> WebGL doesn't have very good support, especially on mobile. That's why one would choose to use SVG.

This statement isn't even vaguely true. SVG support is quite incomplete and inconsistent across all browsers (both desktop and mobile), while Webgl has been comparatively well supported on mobile for many years (Android 4.4 lacked support; Android 9 is now out).

The only issues you might have with most common webgl applications on mobile is performance & battery drain but that's equally true of SVG.

Re: Show HN: SVG 3D Builder – Build 3D Models with SVG

#20

Post by lucideer »

kowdermeister wrote: post #16
xigma wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is, the right tool does not exist on the Web. WebGL doesn't have very good support, especially on mobile. That's why one would choose to use SVG. Also, just to get it to do something requires a lot more expertise and code. Would this project have worked out better on Canvas? Yes, most certainly, but some people have to find out the hard way.

Padorn? Yeah, poor Opera mini users will suffer. https://caniuse.com/#search=webgl

@xigma technically true but not a widespread problem these days statistically. The blacklists cover a small usage percentage.
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