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Ask HN: Learning a foreign language

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Ask HN: Learning a foreign language

#1
For the past 6 months I've been learning Russian and am still struggling to break through. While I'm making progress, it's very slow going and I'm looking for a better way short of moving there (maybe in a few years).

Every piece of advice I've received has fallen into 1 of 2 categories - the traditional (grammar heavy lectures, canned dialogues, workbook exercises, flashcard drills...) or the pragmatic (talking with native speakers, local language groups, learning only the vocabulary for common situations, watching subtitled movies). I've tried different cocktails of all these. I do learn from the traditional methods, but only if I repeat them 10 times. And while the practical methods are more authentic, I end up drowning in the uncharted waters of the language instead of absorbing it.

Is learning a language just miles of crawling through the shit, or is there a way to make non-linear progress? I'm willing to try anything.

Re: Ask HN: Learning a foreign language

#2
Immersion seems to be the best way. Just use the foreign-language all the time.

Those of us who have gone along the foreign language route seem to find that it takes a short but definite time-lag within the brain when 'switching out' the foreign-language and 'switching-in' the native-language. And then the same thing happens with the reverse, you have to 'switch-out' the native-language, and 'switch-in' the foreign-language. Consequently, by continuing to use the native-language, you never get out of the habit of thinking in your native-language.

On the other hand, when never having to 'switch-in' the native-language during immersion, the brain gets much more acclimated to the foreign-language and after a few days to a week, some thinking in the foreign-language occurs. The down-side to this is that you feel a bit like you're living in a bubble, because you don't get to speak freely (easily) to anyone else while you're in immersion, and it just feels so relieving when you finally get to speak to someone else in your native-language.

Good Luck. And if you go travelling to places where that foreign-language is spoken, try not to go with a spouse or friend that only speaks your native-language. They will prevent you from learning the other one.

Re: Ask HN: Learning a foreign language

#3
I suspect you might have heard of him but I found Bennie Lewis' blog to be really good in my own language learning:

http://www.fluentin3months.com/home/

My wife who speaks a couple of languages says that to really ingrain it you must think in the language, don't think in english and then translate.

Re: Ask HN: Learning a foreign language

#4
My basic strategy is that component composition gives you more leverage than memorizing individual words. Most languages have some degree of composition for vocabulary, like root-words, prefixes/suffixes, or individual chinese characters (and the radicals they're built up from) for CJK languages. Learning those root-words/components and how to put them together into compound words, or learning how to compose words into sentences by learning grammar gives you the most leverage, once you have a small base vocabulary to practice with - it doesn't just let you build more words, it also gives you bits and pieces you can look for to help you parse out meaning of things you don't know. For vocabulary, focus memorization on verbs and their conjugation - nouns and adjectives tend to be easier to look up (and not conjugated as much as verbs, and so easier to identify), and tend to be easier to infer from context if you don't know them - if you don't know a noun in conversation, you or they can usually point to it.

I also listen to music in whatever language I'm learning - I used to use it to switch my brain between languages on the way from one language class to another. For memorization, the best way really is to just write it and repeat it a dozen times, so putting a song on repeat is really useful for refreshing your memory on commonly used words, practicing pronunciation, and even occasionally picking up new words by looking up lyrics, etc. Nothing beats immersion, though, just because, on top of practice (inherently prioritized by common usage), it gives you all the extra context to infer or reinforce meaning - memorizing words or working from a textbook means you have no extra information to go off of but what's written there. If you want to get those benefits of immersion without actual immersion, find things that mimic those qualities (extra context, prioritized by common usage, repetition), like music, kids TV shows, comic books, conversation, etc.

Re: Ask HN: Learning a foreign language

#5
Read some of the research by Paul Nation into how people actually learn languages. http://www.victoria.ac.nz/lals/about/staff/paul-nation-pubsd...

In particular this research on how much vocabulary you will need to read and converse. http://www.victoria.ac.nz/lals/about/staff/publications/paul...

For vocabulary I did the following.

1. Learn a few thousand words from scratchcards. (4000-9000 words is ideal, use a memory technique such as linkwords.)

2. Buy a kindle and install the foreign language dictionaries.

3. Start reading simplified books. (Not children's books, they have a surprisingly large vocabulary. i.e. a 6 year old has around 6000 words of his native language.)

4. After this start reading 'normal' books, i..e hunger games. You may have to fetch a few samples from amazon to find authors with a simple writing style.

When you get to step 4, the vocabulary acquisition becomes fun.

Forget the Bennie Lewis guy, his stuff is pay for bollocks.

Re: Ask HN: Learning a foreign language

#6

Read some of the research by Paul Nation into how people actually learn languages. http://www.victoria.ac.nz/lals/about/staff/paul-nation-pubsd... In particular this research on how much vocabulary you will need to read and converse. http://www.victoria.ac.nz/lals/about/staff/publications/paul... For vocabulary I did the following. 1. Learn a few thousand words from scratchcards. (4000-9000 words is ideal, use a memo…

Can you talk more about how you learned thousands of words? I've been drilling words with quizlet, and find that it takes ~10 drills to burn a given word into my brain.

Re: Ask HN: Learning a foreign language

#7
post #6

Read some of the research by Paul Nation into how people actually learn languages. http://www.victoria.ac.nz/lals/about/staff/paul-nation-pubsd... In particular this research on how much vocabulary you will need to read and converse. http://www.victoria.ac.nz/lals/about/staff/publications/paul... For vocabulary I did the following. 1. Learn a few thousand words from scratchcards. (4000-9000 words is ideal, use a memo…

Can you talk more about how you learned thousands of words? I've been drilling words with quizlet, and find that it takes ~10 drills to burn a given word into my brain.

Why do you think it will take less than that? Why are you assuming that there is a magic bullet?

Yes, some people seem to find it easier than others, but acquiring another language takes time. For some people, a lot of time, and there is, to misquote, no "Royal Road to Language."[0]

People are always asking for the easy way to do things. Pratchett wrote about this[1][2] in the context of writing. Sometimes there is nothing better than taking a mashup of techniques and just putting in the time.

I've never mastered a second language, but I've got to the point of having conversations in acquired languages. I always use the same technique:

* Memorise 100 phrases from a phrase book

* Memorise 500 words

* Substitute memorised words into memorised phrases

* Read a book in the target language: preferrably an action novel aimed at 14 year old boys.

* Lather, rinse, repeat.

[0] http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Euclid#Attributed

[1] http://terrypratchettappreciation.tumblr.com/post/6680240757...

[2] http://jackscarab.tumblr.com/post/105468067469/i-get-asked-a...

Re: Ask HN: Learning a foreign language

#8
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you talk more about how you learned thousands of words? I've been drilling words with quizlet, and find that it takes ~10 drills to burn a given word into my brain.

Why do you think it will take less than that? Why are you assuming that there is a magic bullet? Yes, some people seem to find it easier than others, but acquiring another language takes time. For some people, a lot of time, and there is, to misquote, no "Royal Road to Language."[0] People are always asking for the easy way to do things. Pratchett wrote about this[1][2] in the context of writing. Sometimes there is n…

Why do you think it will take less than that? Why are you assuming that there is a magic bullet?

Because surely by now someone has hack disrupted this space with a webapp using DJango and swift across the whole stack with a leveraged angel investor buyout round.

Re: Ask HN: Learning a foreign language

#9
Memorize the 2000 or so most common words via spaced repetition with Anki or Super Memo using pictures.

Learn the grammar.

Start reading simple books / websites about stuff that interests you, accompanied with a dictionary website, as you'll need to look up a shitload of words.

Once you can read well enough, interact with people via forums or web chats in the language, which will improve your skills further.

If you want to sound like a native you'll need lots of speaking practice until your brain adapts.

Some people will sound like Arnold Schwarzenegger for life though.

Re: Ask HN: Learning a foreign language

#10
I've done a Spanish course in my early 30s. I went to Spain, did a two week course there, four hours a day, very basic. The afternoon was free, although we had to prepare homework, which could be quite a lot if you wanted to commit to it.

Before going there I learnt some basic stuff: conjugations of being, having, doing, most prepositions, basic counting (1-100), some emotions and words like walking, seeing, right/left etc. The first morning they had a basic test and I could skip the first course because of my preparation. The first week was quite boring, just like being in high school, with stupid stories etc.

The second week on wednesday night we had a Sangria-tour around town. After several beers and sangrias I started speaking Spanish. Up til then my Spanish was mostly impaired by fear of failure, afraid to make mistakes. My teacher was there and I spoke to her for a half hour, of course with lots of help, searching for the right words, making many mistakes, but suddenly the fear was gone.

Russia: do the vodka tour! ;-) Laugh a lot and don't care about what they think. Listen to their English and compare that to your Russian.

I stayed in an appartment with other foreign students. Among eachother we didn't speak Spanish. You could stay with a Spanish family, and they don't speak English in general, so then you have to find a way. That will help a lot.

After these two weeks I've done two courses in my home town, and left it at that. Now when I'm in Spain I can speak Spanish after several days. I can manage in hotels and shops, have very basic conversations. My French has improved incredibly since then as well.

Disclaimer: in High School we had English, German, French, and even Latin and classic Greek, so I had a good basic knowledge and knew how to learn a language. It takes a lot of effort. After finishing high school my languages were bad and clumsy. After going on holidays I suddenly got to enjoy it. Doing a study where all books were English it all started to change.

Long story short: it takes a lot of effort. Do it all - traditional and pragmatic. Going to Russia is probably most effective.

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