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Ask HN: What's with all the new languages?

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Ask HN: What's with all the new languages?

#1
I have no particular background in programming languages design and theory but It's been an exciting topic the last few years since a lot of new languages have gained popularity and also most of the big companies seem to have one or two of them in their portfolio (no need to list them all really C#, Go, Swift etc). I've been also on an exploration lately into the history of computer science and reading about the Lisp family and Smalltalk as they seem to viewed as the better designed ones. There is also that quote from PG where he says langs that are invented for the use of the author tend to be better. So what I don't understand and hope somebody here could shed some light on it is what's with all the new languages? How many of them really bring something new to the table, a better way than the old one? How is Go or Rust better than C C++ Ruby Python Lisps Java Smalltalk Erlang and whatnot. Are those languages designed for very specific cases where older languages can't cope with. When I read about Smalltalk or Lisp or Haskell people regard them as the pinnacle of programming language design and yet their popularity isn't really proportional to those statements. How do languages get popular? Money, syntax, portability? Why did PHP rule the 90' and not Common Lisp or Erlang or whatever. Why do I read so much bad stuff about C++ from smart people yet it's one of the most popular languages. Why isn't Objective-C more popular since it is too C with classes? Why Java and not Self?

When I ask those questions I am in no way trying to discredit new languages and their usefulness, I am just young, naive, not very smart and trying to get and idea of how the real world of programming and computer works.

And yes, I know the story of JavaScript. Surely that's an exception in the rule of how languages get popular?

Re: Ask HN: What's with all the new languages?

#2
It seems like its an evolving thing -- maybe like car design... there is language design also. All of them bring new things to the table, and the good ideas are then debated by designers and copied into other languages.

Languages get popular because of the people who use them. PHP ruled because it was easy to use and had a ton of tutorials - with a huge userbase to answer any question.

I'm not sure why people knock C++, its ugly but its fast. Obj-C is popular, just less popular than c++ (I think? Perhaps there are just easier ways to create apps for *nix and windows than Obj-C). I'm not sure about anything Java.

Javascript was an exception, IMO, because... they had a monopoly on being the only language that lets u modify webpage content programmatically.

Re: Ask HN: What's with all the new languages?

#4
I'm not entirely sure, but I believe Go is basically a continuation of Rob Pike's vision in terms of how computing should be in general. (Plan 9, acme, rio, procfs, etc.) It's the spiritual successor to Limbo, which itself was the successor to Newsqueak. They basically extend upon the general model of C, but add things like built-in concurrency (inspired by CSP), conservative garbage collection, type checking and so forth. They also aim for simplicity and removing complicated features (see also cat-v.org and "harmful software" to understand the philosophy).

As for C++, Java and so forth, popularity is no indicator of quality. That and Smalltalk/Smalltalk-esque languages had rocky starts, including difficulty of acquiring development environments and performance overhead.

EDIT: Concerning Objective-C, it's pretty tough to work with it outside of an OS X-related environment, because of the lack of essential libraries. There's GNUstep, which tries to fill in the gap, but it remains very behind and it has very little development going for it.

Re: Ask HN: What's with all the new languages?

#5
We are dealing with a much different environment now since we cannot count on an ever faster single CPU. We also must deal with an environment where your program can be attacked via the network or how it handles memory.

Its really about time for a new set of languages given a historical view (after you remove some of the distortions brought on by the Java bankroll).

Re: Ask HN: What's with all the new languages?

#6
Caveat Emptor: All the analysis below pertains mostly to type system features and other "surface observable" aspects of the lanugage. Newly maturing compilation techniques are certainly another reason for the recent explosion (e.g. Rust, Haskell). But I'll stick to what I (ostensibly) know.

> I have no particular background in programming languages design and theory

Well then, good news: most of these new languages -- especially those you mentioned -- were invented primarily with software engineers and programming in mind. That said, all are informed by ideas which emerged as PL design principles in the 1960's-1980's and became well-established in PLT academia throughout the 70's, 80's, 90's and 00's. Haskell is definitely an exception is many ways, but at least the essential ideas driving the type system design were there in the 80's. (with the possible exception of Haskell, where the "old ideas finally getting to market" analysis is a bit less true).

> I've been also on an exploration lately into the history of computer science and reading about the Lisp family and Smalltalk as they seem to viewed as the better designed ones.

I don't know about better designed. A better characterization is that they capture some essence -- lisp, smalltalk, SML, Haskell, etc. were all designed and implemented to demonstrate the feasibility of a certain programming style or discipline (as well how that approach makes certain problems really easy when they weren't easy before.)

> So what I don't understand and hope somebody here could shed some light on it is what's with all the new languages?

> How many of them really bring something new to the table, a better way than the old one?

> How is Go or Rust better than C C++ Ruby Python Lisps Java Smalltalk Erlang and whatnot.

A detailed answer would consider each pair. But broadly:

* These languages typed, which contrasts them from the dynamic family (including lisp).

* These languages tend to favor composition over inheritance, which differentiates them from (canonical) Java.

* These languages tend to make typed functional programming first-class (syntactic and compiler support for lambdas; pattern matching; etc.)

* The examples you've provided -- Rust, Go, Swift -- are more systems-oriented than Java and are not based on a VM.

* Lots of smaller things. E.g. apparently avoiding C++'s slow builds were a major design point for Go.

> Are those languages designed for very specific cases where older languages can't cope with.

Yes. All are designed to address some significant flaw with existing languages. Most were created because for an important set of language requirements, there exists a language which fulfills each requirement but no single language which fulfills all requirements. (Again, Haskell stands out as an experiment with laziness if I understand the history correctly).

> When I read about Smalltalk or Lisp or Haskell people regard them as the pinnacle of programming language design and yet their popularity isn't really proportional to those statements.

> How do languages get popular?

This is an area of active research (search for SocioPLT [1]). The common wisdom is "library support + important problem niche". The library thing strikes me as tautological.

> Money, syntax, portability?

The first is certainly a major reason the # languages exist :-)

> Why did PHP rule the 90' and not Common Lisp or Erlang or whatever.

Oh dear. Let's just agree that "quality" does not equal "popularity". Bieber > Vienna Philharmonic?

> Why do I read so much bad stuff about C++ from smart people yet it's one of the most popular languages. Why isn't Objective-C more popular since it is too C with classes? Why Java and not Self?

You'll receive lots of conjectures. I'll leave that business to others.

[1]http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/~lmeyerov/projects/socioplt/pap...

edits: formatting, adding link to splt

Re: Ask HN: What's with all the new languages?

#7
Maybe the increased number of people on the internet is connecting those who are making open languages. (I know the poster listed many ones made by closed teams too.)

I thought the technical/scientific computing market that MATLAB serves was too niche to get critical mass in an open competitor that could surpass it. I saw Octave as always being a second place clone playing catch up. I don't know what it took to get it going but Julia has me very excited and I'm grateful for the team that chose to make it.

Re: Ask HN: What's with all the new languages?

#8
PL are one piece of the (user,problem,tool) trinity. Every time you ask yourself why ? the reason is because for a particular triplet, it was the best solution.

Give a newcomer sml with no easy way to integrate with a HTTP server and watch the confusion grow. On the other hand PHP has good apache integration, is a simple platform : a .php file with html and code, press F5 observe your results and is a deceptively non complex language.

Re: Ask HN: What's with all the new languages?

#9
"So what I don't understand and hope somebody here could shed some light on it is what's with all the new languages?"

While one can make an argument that these new languages address a particular need better than any extant language, I suspect the real reason is that it's more fun to create tools, including languages, than to solve particular business problems. As evidence, I offer the plethora of frameworks, libraries, and utilities that comprise the ecosystem of Java in particular. In many enterprise systems the business logic is a small fraction of the total running application.

"When I read about Smalltalk or Lisp or Haskell people regard them as the pinnacle of programming language design . . . ."

Lisp wasn't designed, it was discovered. ;-)

Thanks for the interesting questions.

Re: Ask HN: What's with all the new languages?

#10
A hypthesis: Languages are no mean in itself. They are used to generate programs for specific purposes on specific plattforms. The availability of the plattforms and the need to create software for them makes the language popular. C for Unix/Linux, JavaScript for the Browser, C++ for Microsoft Windows, Java for Business stuff* and Android, Ruby for Rails, Objective-C for Mac and iOS, C# for .net.

* Sun invested a billion in Java to replace the more costlier Smalltalk. Instead of competing with Sun, IBM ditched Smalltalk and just went with Java, too.

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