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Ask HN: I am in a David vs. Goliath fight and I need some advice

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Ask HN: I am in a David vs. Goliath fight and I need some advice

#1
I participated in the GE FlightQuest competition hosted by Kaggle.com. I had the 4th best score, but because of what other competitors and myself view as a software bug on Kaggle.com's platform [1], I was not recognized as a winner when GE and Kaggle announced the prize winners. For reference, the 4th place prize winner would have earned 30,000 USD.

I notified Kaggle.com within ~1hr of their announcement of the mistake and they did not get back with me for 2 days. 8 days after the announcement was made I was finally able to get a call with a Kaggle executive. The executive offered me partial prize money and kaggle competition points to resolve the matter unofficially. I said I wasn't interested. Kaggle then opened a new forum discussion [1] which a number of other competitors chime in and explain the limitations/bugs of the Kaggle.com platform specifically as it related to the FlightQuest competition and discuss my specific situation.

Finally, an executive from GE contacted me this morning over email and let me know that he supports Kaggle.com's decision of not recognizing me as the 4th place finisher.

I feel like Kaggle/GE have not handled this properly and I would like to get some opinions on what, if anything I should do.

[1] https://www.gequest.com/c/flight/forums/t/4284/acknowledging-two-more-great-competitors

Re: Ask HN: I am in a David vs. Goliath fight and I need some advice

#2
Get a lawyer is the best advice you'll get -- just like every other time someone Asks HN what to do with (potential) legal matters. Apparently, most lawyers will do some sort of initial consult for free. Also, might be a good idea to delete this post ASAP, if you're seriously considering legal action.

Re: Ask HN: I am in a David vs. Goliath fight and I need some advice

#3
post #2

Get a lawyer is the best advice you'll get -- just like every other time someone Asks HN what to do with (potential) legal matters. Apparently, most lawyers will do some sort of initial consult for free. Also, might be a good idea to delete this post ASAP, if you're seriously considering legal action.

I have not consulted a lawyer yet, the reason being the competition rules state the following:

"By participating in the Competition, each Entrant agrees to release, indemnify and hold harmless GE, Kaggle Inc., and their respective affiliates, subsidiaries, advertising and promotions agencies, as applicable, and each of their respective agents, representatives, officers, directors, shareholders, and employees from and against any injuries, losses, damages, claims, actions and any liability of any kind resulting from or arising out of your participation in or association with the Competition. GE is not responsible for any miscommunications such as technical failures related to computer, telephone, cable, and unavailable network or server connections, related technical failures, or other failures related to hardware, software or virus, or incomplete, late or misdirected Entries. GE reserves the right to cancel, modify or suspend the Competition should any computer virus, bug or other technical difficulty or other causes beyond the control of GE corrupt the administration, security or proper play of the Competition, and to determine winners from among Entries not affected by the corruption, if any, in its sole discretion."

I interpret that as saying: GE can pick the winners using its sole discretion. So I don't believe this is a legal issue I can win. I have a lawyer in the family, I will run it by her and see what her opinion is.

Re: Ask HN: I am in a David vs. Goliath fight and I need some advice

#4
If you are interested in working with/through Kaggle on a longer-term basis, finding some solution outside of a lawsuit would be something to think about. You are getting a chance to interact with them and maybe build contacts that could be useful down the road. If the offer was insulting and/or you don't want to work with them down the road, that is another matter. When you start bringing in lawyers on both sides it becomes an entirely different matter than what it "right". It becomes a costly legalese/terms/courtroom issue. Good luck either way.

Re: Ask HN: I am in a David vs. Goliath fight and I need some advice

#5
Sounds like they tried to mitigate the situation in a reasonable manner. If they name you as fourth, then the formerly fourth place finisher gets upset.

Some things are like futbol - there's no instant replay. Lawyering up isn't going to impress anyone.

Re: Ask HN: I am in a David vs. Goliath fight and I need some advice

#6
post #4

If you are interested in working with/through Kaggle on a longer-term basis, finding some solution outside of a lawsuit would be something to think about. You are getting a chance to interact with them and maybe build contacts that could be useful down the road. If the offer was insulting and/or you don't want to work with them down the road, that is another matter. When you start bringing in lawyers on both sides it…

Ironically, that has been the best part about this ordeal - a number of the top competitors have shown support through the forum as well as private emails. I compete alone, so this issue has given me the opportunity to get to know some of the other folks.

I am not certain I want to work on anymore Kaggle competitions. I put (just a guess) somewhere between 100 and 200 hours into FlightQuest. It is hard for me to rationalize putting this amount of effort into another Kaggle hosted competition after going through the experiences I went through for this competition.

Re: Ask HN: I am in a David vs. Goliath fight and I need some advice

#7
post #5

Sounds like they tried to mitigate the situation in a reasonable manner. If they name you as fourth, then the formerly fourth place finisher gets upset. Some things are like futbol - there's no instant replay. Lawyering up isn't going to impress anyone.

I get the instant replay analogy, but I have a problem with a bug in their software impacting the results of the competition. I work in software, so I get living with bugs and understanding they are always going to be there. But I am unhappy that Kaggle/GE announced the winners via press release at the same the rest of the competition field was notified. It makes it impossible for a competitor to dispute the final results.

From the response I have received from Kaggle/GE I get the impression, under no circumstances what so ever would they go back and change the published results of this competition.

Re: Ask HN: I am in a David vs. Goliath fight and I need some advice

#8
IANAL but here's what I think an attorney who took the time to look the whole thing over would say:

The language in the contract (that you posted) seems pretty cut and dried, but I don't know whether that's actually going to hold up in a court of law. You entered a contest expecting the contest holders to hold the contest correctly. When the flaw was exposed, they did not honor it. That means your work was in vain. That's not in the spirit of the contest, thus the written words are only part of the story. A reasonable person expects that the company running the contest does so fairly. You seem to have not been treated fairly thus I think you have a case. I would imagine that, if you posted up a $500,000 lawsuit with $30,000 of reward and $470,000 of punitive damages, you'd hear from a different GE exec who has a very different POV.

Re: Ask HN: I am in a David vs. Goliath fight and I need some advice

#9
post #3
post #2

Get a lawyer is the best advice you'll get -- just like every other time someone Asks HN what to do with (potential) legal matters. Apparently, most lawyers will do some sort of initial consult for free. Also, might be a good idea to delete this post ASAP, if you're seriously considering legal action.

I have not consulted a lawyer yet, the reason being the competition rules state the following: "By participating in the Competition, each Entrant agrees to release, indemnify and hold harmless GE, Kaggle Inc., and their respective affiliates, subsidiaries, advertising and promotions agencies, as applicable, and each of their respective agents, representatives, officers, directors, shareholders, and employees from and…

Please, get a lawyer outside the family with experience of competition law - maybe your sister/aunt can tell you the area of law that might apply and point to some local firms

You need objective advice, not coloured by "what if my advi e leads to not speaking to half the family" - don't put that on her.

Secondly, consult a lawyer because they have - if according to the common-sense rules you should get 30k (and I don't at all understand the situation) then no amount of disclaimers or indemnification deprives you - statute on competitions run for marketing purposes are widespread.

Maybe you have a case, maybe not, but without a lawyer you won't know and without a lawyer they (GE?Kaggle) won't take you seriously - which kind of screws the only other reason you seem to have for not getting a lawyer - the idea that maybe you will pick up some work later on. If they see you as a push over on this, why will they respect you next time?

This does not mean drop a writ for 10 million in the morning - get advice, if there is a case, ask if the lawyer can directly contact the organisers lawyers for clarification or discovery. If you have a case they will have to do something - push now, so that their decision has not been set in concrete and them moved on.

Re: Ask HN: I am in a David vs. Goliath fight and I need some advice

#10

IANAL but here's what I think an attorney who took the time to look the whole thing over would say: The language in the contract (that you posted) seems pretty cut and dried, but I don't know whether that's actually going to hold up in a court of law. You entered a contest expecting the contest holders to hold the contest correctly. When the flaw was exposed, they did not honor it. That means your work was in vain. T…

In the UK at least there are quite stringent rules on how you can run a competition - give away a car? Abide by the rules.
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