As a person working in the EU on an unlimited contract and reading all the headlines about mass layoffs in the US I can't help asking myself - how is that possible there and not possible here? Are unlimited contracts not that typical in the US? Or is it easier to circumvent them and find an excuse/reason to void the contract? In the EU the notice period goes both ways - I can't leave my job immediately, but my employer also can't fire me immediately - from what I read here in the US it is perfectly normal to wake up and find out you've been fired. What am I missing?
Ask HN: How do layoffs in the US work?
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Re: Ask HN: How do layoffs in the US work?
#2Basically, if you're salaried (Full-time employee) and an executive gets a hair and decides to pivot, then layoffs'll happen. Basically, it's your employer looking at financial prospects and going "We no longer have need of your services."
It is generally coupled with a severance package, which if taken delays your eligibility to avail yourself of your State's unemployment benefits. Many states are at will employment. It is customary to give two weeks notice, but not strictly required.
The U.S. can be a fickle beast.
Re: Ask HN: How do layoffs in the US work?
#3Europe has much stronger labour laws, and a much deeper social safety net for people who do in fact lose their jobs. Almost all states (Montana being kind of the exception where at-will goes away after the probationary period of your job) have "At-Will" [1] employment, which basically means you can be fired for anything, at any time, without any reason needing to be given, apart from for a few carved-out exceptions; for example, it is illegal to fire you because of your skin colour. If your boss wants to fire you for wearing a blue tie on a Wednesday, you're out.
In many ways worse than the immediate loss of job/income, though, is that your medical coverage is usually (and by usually, I means pretty much always) tied to your employment. So if you're pregnant, or if you're on expensive life-saving medicines, well, you have a problem.
There are various band-aids to try and help people out when they lose their job, but none of them are particularly impressive, looking on them from a European perspective.
I'm a Brit, been here for almost 20 years, basically for the money. I would have left and returned back to the UK 5 years or so ago (having made enough to keep us comfortably for the rest of our lives) but the kid is in school, and my (US) wife doesn't want to uproot him (which is fair). Once he's off to college, I'm going to retire, stay a while on relatively low "income" to get out of the "fuck you" tax for green-card holders leaving the country, and I'm (we're) out of here.
Re: Ask HN: How do layoffs in the US work?
#4Europe has much stronger labour laws, and a much deeper social safety net for people who do in fact lose their jobs. Almost all states (Montana being kind of the exception where at-will goes away after the probationary period of your job) have "At-Will" [1] employment, which basically means you can be fired for anything, at any time, without any reason needing to be given, apart from for a few carved-out exceptions;…
> your medical coverage is usually (and by usually, I means pretty much always) tied to your employment.
That has not been true for ten years now, with the implementation of the Affordable Care Act (aka Obamacare). It used to be that pre-existing conditions tied you strongly to continuous employment (except for periods of COBRA coverage avaialble), but those are no longer grounds for denying you new coverage. And if your income has dropped a lot, most if not all of the coverage will be subsidized by the government.
Re: Ask HN: How do layoffs in the US work?
#5No post body was provided.
Re: Ask HN: How do layoffs in the US work?
#6If you are a member of a labor union, there are usually some mandatory negotiations involved around terminations. Otherwise, you can quit any job at a moment's notice, as well as being terminated the same way, although there are often two-week notices (including wages) given both ways by convention.
If you quit, or are fired for cause, you are not eligible for unemployment compensation. If you are laid off for "lack of work", then yes.
Re: Ask HN: How do layoffs in the US work?
#7Europe has much stronger labour laws, and a much deeper social safety net for people who do in fact lose their jobs. Almost all states (Montana being kind of the exception where at-will goes away after the probationary period of your job) have "At-Will" [1] employment, which basically means you can be fired for anything, at any time, without any reason needing to be given, apart from for a few carved-out exceptions;…
> your medical coverage is usually (and by usually, I means pretty much always) tied to your employment. That has not been true for ten years now, with the implementation of the Affordable Care Act (aka Obamacare). It used to be that pre-existing conditions tied you strongly to continuous employment (except for periods of COBRA coverage avaialble), but those are no longer grounds for denying you new coverage. And if…
> And if your income has dropped a lot, most if not all of the coverage will be subsidized by the government
This seems to be very location-dependent. Most states will be reasonably generous and extend Medicaid coverage to you. Some will not. Even when you have Medicaid coverage, it's still a crap-shoot whether a Dr. will take you on as a patient. Hospitals will, in general, but there's plenty of Dr's offices with "No Medicaid" signs in them.
COBRA is an utter joke. If you've just lost your job, how are you supposed to afford $1750/month [1] for medical insurance for your family ?
I think Obamacare was a step in the right direction for health-care in the US. I think it's woefully short of just about anywhere in Europe. The entire healthcare industry in the US seems to pile on huge amounts of stress right at the point where you need to just get well. In-network/Out-of-network, covered/non-covered, co-pays, crazy-high deductibles, the works. In the UK, the only thing I worry about paying for is parking at the hospital...
[1]:https://www.brookings.edu/blog/usc-brookings-schaeffer-on-he...
Re: Ask HN: How do layoffs in the US work?
#8Earlier quoted context omitted.
> your medical coverage is usually (and by usually, I means pretty much always) tied to your employment. That has not been true for ten years now, with the implementation of the Affordable Care Act (aka Obamacare). It used to be that pre-existing conditions tied you strongly to continuous employment (except for periods of COBRA coverage avaialble), but those are no longer grounds for denying you new coverage. And if…
> And if your income has dropped a lot, most if not all of the coverage will be subsidized by the government This seems to be very location-dependent. Most states will be reasonably generous and extend Medicaid coverage to you. Some will not. Even when you have Medicaid coverage, it's still a crap-shoot whether a Dr. will take you on as a patient. Hospitals will, in general, but there's plenty of Dr's offices with "N…
COBRA is what it is, if you had high priced employer paid coverage and you want to continue it, it's going to cost a lot.
Otoh, there's exchange plans which tend to be lower cost. All the exchange plans have to cover the same baseline things, but of course how big your share is varies. There's subsidies if your income is low, but not too low for medicaid.
Yes, there's a lot of fussyness in the details, and it can be stressful, but you just go and do your healthcare and wait and see what the bill is, and then decide if you're going to pay it or not. Mostly, there's no requirement to pay at time of service.
Re: Ask HN: How do layoffs in the US work?
#9Earlier quoted context omitted.
> And if your income has dropped a lot, most if not all of the coverage will be subsidized by the government This seems to be very location-dependent. Most states will be reasonably generous and extend Medicaid coverage to you. Some will not. Even when you have Medicaid coverage, it's still a crap-shoot whether a Dr. will take you on as a patient. Hospitals will, in general, but there's plenty of Dr's offices with "N…
COBRA is what it is, if you had high priced employer paid coverage and you want to continue it, it's going to cost a lot. Otoh, there's exchange plans which tend to be lower cost. All the exchange plans have to cover the same baseline things, but of course how big your share is varies. There's subsidies if your income is low, but not too low for medicaid. Yes, there's a lot of fussyness in the details, and it can be…
"It is what it is" is not an acceptable answer, from a European perspective. That's the point I was trying to make.
And I stand by the original claim: "There are various band-aids to try and help people out when they lose their job, but none of them are particularly impressive, looking on them from a European perspective."
Re: Ask HN: How do layoffs in the US work?
#10> Are unlimited contracts not that typical in the US?
I had to look this up. This is definitely not a thing in the US. Why would a company even offer that? Also, the US you can basically leave a job whenever you want.
> from what I read here in the US it is perfectly normal to wake up and find out you've been fired
Maybe a cultural difference here, but why would you want it any other way? If I'm notified that I'm going to be fired in 4 months, why would I bother showing up to work those 4 months? You may as well fire me now and pay me the 4 months' salary.