Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#1

Post by jelan » Sat, Oct 08, 2022, 5:06 PM UTC

I have a few years of experience working mostly on the frontend with React and am getting more and more frustrated with all the added layers of complexity needed to work with most common frontend frameworks.

I’ve hit a point where it just doesn’t seem like the end justifies the means in the vast majority of cases anymore which really doesn’t make me excited to work on much in this space now.

The one redeeming quality of doing this kind of work is that it is in very high demand, and I worry that the price of becoming more specialized or doing something more enjoyable with less bloat is that it becomes much harder to find jobs.

Has anyone either switched from doing web development type work to something else they enjoy more for similar reasons? If anyone considers themselves very specialized in an area, do you worry about job opportunities?

Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#2

Post by lhorie » Sat, Oct 08, 2022, 5:57 PM UTC

I transitioned from product work to platform/dev productivity work (think frameworks, internal tools) surrounding the web stack, which is a form of extreme specialization. It effectively means I'm not directly dealing w/ useEffect stale closure sort of crap, but instead I work w/ things like supply chain management, CI flakiness and build optimization, which involves developing a skillset that doesn't really fit into the "jack of all trades, master or one" narrative; it's more like developing depth in a wide array of obscure things plus a large dose navigating "working groups" to complement a workforce composed largely of React experts.

Career growth is currently primarily coming from increased internal impact at a large company. In terms of future career growth, most of the recruiter spam I get for Senior/Staff/Principal roles is below my current pay grade, so I expect that further growth will require shifting more and more into director track.

Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#3

Post by uhrush » Sat, Oct 08, 2022, 5:58 PM UTC

Could you give some examples of the complexities you're tired of?

Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#4

Post by nickjj » Sat, Oct 08, 2022, 5:58 PM UTC

Using React with an API back-end is only 1 of many choices.

There's tools like Hotwire[0] and htmx[1] (both are back-end agnostic) that will let you create good old boring web apps with any back-end language where you don't need to write a ton of JS. You can sprinkle in front-end quality of life enhancements as needed to make nice feeling web apps with reasonably minimal complexity.

[0]: https://hotwired.dev/

[1]: https://htmx.org/

Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#5

Post by carom » Sat, Oct 08, 2022, 6:01 PM UTC

I just use Go for a self contained back end and server. For the front end I use the html templates, but for the most part it is traditional html, css, and js. No compiling js.

That said, I primarily work in other areas. This is just for when I need a web app.

Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#6

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Oct 08, 2022, 6:05 PM UTC

carom wrote: post #5

I just use Go for a self contained back end and server. For the front end I use the html templates, but for the most part it is traditional html, css, and js. No compiling js. That said, I primarily work in other areas. This is just for when I need a web app.

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#7

Post by sebastianconcpt » Sat, Oct 08, 2022, 6:07 PM UTC

I feel you. I feel this since 2014 actually. Same exact DX - Developer Experience.

Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#8

Post by xd » Sat, Oct 08, 2022, 6:11 PM UTC

I bumped into an old friend recently and he and his wife work at a real estate company. They were raving about this new system they are a couple of years into the development of and how it's built on this great "Kubernetes" system.. they asked what I develop my products with and I almost felt embarrassed to say PHP and a couple of servers in two locations for redundancy that run Archlinux with a LAMP (LNMP? I guess with NGINX/MariaDB these days) stack .. same thing I've used for 20 years now (I was one of the first AL volunteers). When I asked what language their system is developed in they said Kubernetes, of course.

Anyway, it kind of reminds me of the days when everyone was developing a PHP Framework .. I've never used one and if I was to apply for a PHP job I'd be unlikely to succeed as I'm very specialised in getting shit done.

Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#9

Post by dimmke » Sat, Oct 08, 2022, 6:12 PM UTC

>I’ve hit a point where it just doesn’t seem like the end justifies the means in the vast majority of cases anymore

I agree, but the only path forward is to change the specifications for HTML/CSS/JavaScript.

As an industry we need to accept that these technologies get used to build web pages as well as software and adjust. This will remove a ton of the tooling. I think there are 3 basic things we could do to solve this:

1. Add dynamic interpolation to the HTML spec. This stops every framework from having to invent it's own version of it. 2. Update the DOM api to allow data binding/state and improve the Web APIs around routing/history to make SPAs even easier. 3. Update the HTML spec to allow for semantically describing user interface elements of software applications.

But it's going to be a hard sell. I am slowly writing a blog post about this, but I'm not sure I will be able to get anybody to listen. I feel like now, when we're in a browser monoculture where the browser vendor is actually competent is the perfect time to push this stuff through.

BTW: You can put your email in at daniel.do to get emailed when I release my post.

Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#10

Post by cercatrova » Sat, Oct 08, 2022, 6:14 PM UTC

As someone who works in full stack development, what complexities are you talking about exactly? I just spin up a NextJS app with an express server if I need a backend as well. In a way, it's been easier than before where you'd have to set up Webpack and friends. I just write React code and it automatically shows up on the page.

You can do more complex stuff, sure, but it's not necessarily required. So it depends on what you're doing, which if you can answer I can help give an answer to.