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Ask HN: Can you legally deny selling software to someone on ethical grounds?

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Ask HN: Can you legally deny selling software to someone on ethical grounds?

#1
Our company sells software as a service that helps people organize events.

We have been growing quickly over the past couple of years and have recently run into an ethical question: should we (and can we legally) decline to sell our software to organizations that we think are morally wrong?

For example, there are several people on our team that are extremely pro-choice. We had a pro-life group sign up recently and these employees are threatening to quit if we accept their money.

Is it even legal to refuse their business (it could be considered religious discrimination).

I think we're all in agreement that if the KKK signed up and wanted to use our software to organize clan rallies we would not be willing to foster hate speech.

The question has also been raised of if we deny this client where we would draw the line in the future. If a certain politician wanted to use it to organize rallies in the next election would that be Ok even if we vehemently opposed their political beliefs?

How have other software companies dealt with this in the past?

Re: Ask HN: Can you legally deny selling software to someone on ethical grounds?

#3
Your company should have legal counsel who can answer questions like this.

Religious discrimination applies to individuals in hiring or school admissions situations. Companies can generally reserve the right to not do business with a customer for any reason, but various legal precedents might apply, so it depends.

Re: Ask HN: Can you legally deny selling software to someone on ethical grounds?

#4

(Sorry for the throwaway account; my normal HN account is tied to my identity and I don't want this linked to my employer.)

No problem, makes sense.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html "Throwaway accounts are ok for sensitive information"

Re: Ask HN: Can you legally deny selling software to someone on ethical grounds?

#5
I think it's one of the reasons boiler-plate terms-of-service documents have so many restrictions how you may use a service. For example my ISP doesn't allow me to post any hate speech related content while using their internet service. Unlikely to impossible they check all users, but gives them the loophole to deny service to anybody indidually, possibly using a small unrelated technicality as stated reason, should they find out.

Random ShowHN of a website that's not even a month old https://exifshot.com/terms "We have the right (though not the obligation) to, in Our sole discretion (i) [...] or (ii) terminate or deny access to and use of the Website to any individual or entity for any reason, in Our sole discretion. We will have no obligation to provide a refund of any amounts previously paid."

Our SaaS discussed the same. We had political parties we didn't agree with, government agencies we didn't agree with (spying, tracking), even individuals. So far none made it past the trial period, they effectively never really used our service. We would deny service, we're small (and pride?) enough to stand for our ideals.

I agree with your assessment you might get sued when it comes to religious discrimination.

Re: Ask HN: Can you legally deny selling software to someone on ethical grounds?

#6
post #5

I think it's one of the reasons boiler-plate terms-of-service documents have so many restrictions how you may use a service. For example my ISP doesn't allow me to post any hate speech related content while using their internet service. Unlikely to impossible they check all users, but gives them the loophole to deny service to anybody indidually, possibly using a small unrelated technicality as stated reason, should…

On your point about using loopholes to deny service. I'm writing this under a more anonymous account too because apparently what I'm about to say is a radical idea and people don't usually get it.

I was charged for a crime once! I spent a month in jail! Me! I did. Yeah. They never managed to directly accuse me of anything and in the end I took a plea bargain to get out of jail (they had already locked me in jail for a month for literally nothing, I would put nothing past them). The most valuable lesson I learned from this is that we are all already guilty of something according to the way the law is written. They only call that in when they need to get you. But be under no delusions that you are not already got. Constitutional justice is pure fantasy in the United States.

If "the bad guys" write rules that make everyone already guilty I have to wonder at what point "the good guys" become guilty themselves. I'm saying the "it's not my responsibility" excuse doesn't cut it anymore.

Re: Ask HN: Can you legally deny selling software to someone on ethical grounds?

#9
If you give in on this, what next will they ask? They are trying to partially take control of the business by making threats. That is never acceptable. Fire them for cause, or at least make them quit. (financially better if they quit, but they might illegally cause harm unless you escort them out immediately)

Also, you don't discriminate if you are serious about running a business. You accept all legal business that is profitable.

Re: Ask HN: Can you legally deny selling software to someone on ethical grounds?

#10
Unless you are a federally and state utilities commission regulated utility service like an electrical grid operator, natural gas last-mile operator, or dialtone POTS phone service, you are not obligated to accept any particular customer.
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