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Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

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Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#1
Hi, all. Long time, first time. Hoping to tap into the collective HN consciousness to help make sense of this question, as I feel it's something I'm seeing/experiencing at present.

It seems like twice a week or more I read there is an industry shortage of devs, but I never hear about any companies, of any size, looking for junior devs -- or generally competent devs that might have a specific knowledge gap -- to hire and give on-the-job training to. Not even a contract-to-hire situation that leaves the company with very little risk if the developer isn't what they needed.

Is on-the-job training just flat-out dead?

I ask this because I'm 4-years-experienced as a front-end UI/interaction dev, nothing but glowing references, looking for another, similar, position (regular, not senior or lead) and have had...way too many interviews and rejections, and can't understand why companies are such sticklers for interested devs to have Every Single Box in their list of requirements checked when it would take days or a couple weeks to learn XYZ framework/library/whatever to the level of competence that is required for the position.

To further stack up the frustration, it's not uncommon to see the same position listed and re-listed on LinkedIn and Indeed for months: certainly somebody could have been hired and trained to the level needed in that time. (Maybe even me!)

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#2
At the businesses where I worked, developers were hired to be productive in taking on workload. Obviously, new people had to be brought up to speed on the existing systems before they could fix problems or add features. If we first had to give them technical training for months before they could be trained to understand the existing systems, that would have taken too much time. Even the front-end user and B2B interfaces were large and complex, let alone the arcane and hideously complicated domain-specific business logic - that took years to learn and be proficient working on. If in a job interview I heard the equivalent of "I can learn your UI framework or whatever" there would not be a hire.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#3
I think it is a bit like dating in the modern era: there's always the hope of finding the perfect unicorn.

There's also the fact that people sometimes dont hire until it hurts (they have too much work to do) and then there's little or not time to train.

There's also a flood of folks from the bootcamps that may or may not have skills but want the salary of a jr dev. These folks (understandably!) flood any jr job posting, making it hard to get through to the hiring manager. There's a bit of the flavor of the year 1999 in my opinion, where everyone wanted to be a programmer (and if you could say "Java" you were hired).

Finally, an investment of months of training makes sense if an employee will be around for years. But because of the erosion of the employee/employer social contract, there's no guarantee as to how long a trained employee will stick around. Better to wait and hire someone who can make an impact their second day.

That said I think there's an enormous opportunity to do this kind of training, create loyal employees, and improve the world by training more devs.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#4
If you are just a junior dev then it may be unnatural for companies to see 4 years of experience in your CV. They probably expect you to be a middle dev given the number of years in the field.

And the most important thing: companies generally tend to expect you to bring the value from month 1. Many of them are scared to death by the prospect of an extensive training for someone who may or may not be a good fit in the long run.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#5
I think it's totally doable, but you need two important things

1) a good exit process 2) a good promotion process

1 brings serious culture issues/questions with it. See horror stories from people who went to grad school in the 80s and 90s where year two cut rates were 50% or worse. I don't know how you deal with this, but it will certainly deeply affect your work environment.

2 is easy on the face, but requires huge buy in. Realistically you're looking at a 2-10x increase in this person's compensation over a very short time frame or you'll lose your training investment as they jump ship.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#6
post #2

At the businesses where I worked, developers were hired to be productive in taking on workload. Obviously, new people had to be brought up to speed on the existing systems before they could fix problems or add features. If we first had to give them technical training for months before they could be trained to understand the existing systems, that would have taken too much time. Even the front-end user and B2B interfa…

I don't really understand this?

It's trivial to learn a new UI framework, why limit yourself to only the devs that know the one you've selected?

I guess if you have a lot to choose from why not.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#7
Basically in 1981 Reagan fired 11000 striking air traffic controllers which broke the backs of American unions, permanently establishing corporations' privilege over humans. Ever since companies have been insisting that workers spend more and more so that they can be slotted into ever more specific niches without the company risking anything.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#8
> I ask this because I'm 4-years-experienced as a front-end UI/interaction dev, nothing but glowing references, looking for another, similar, position (regular, not senior or lead)

It depends on what country you're in. This USA has an obsession with calling anybody with more than 2-3 years experience a 'senior' developer. In Europe senior is more like 7-8 years.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#9
This might be an unpopular opinion, but I would expect that each newly hired developer (be it junior, mid-level, senior) can and will take time to do train and improve him/herself. I don't mind this being on job time, as long it is not all day. Most times this is even required when doing a task, because no one knows everything, even with X+ years of experience. If this mindset is not there and a newly hired developer requires actual training (like someone else in the company teaching them), then I think he/she will never make a good developer in the first place, because each new task with some obstacle they have never dealt with, will require them to get training from someone else.

I am a big fan of mentoring, but this is related to understanding the existing platform and getting productive working on it, not about teaching technology XYZ.

This opinion should actually go both ways and companies need to be willing to hire developers, even they don't have the 100% exact skills they need and then allow them to improve them on the job. If you got rejected by companies because they don't understand this, then be glad that you will not work for them.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#10
I don't really get the question? The company I work for (and many others) hire a bunch of new grads who require a lot of training to become productive.

In your situation, I think you're making a strategic mistake. Don't say "nope, don't know anything about react". Spend a small amount of time to do a basic hello world, say "oh, I've toyed around with it and I'm interested in property X but I haven't used it professionally" and you will put yourself in a better position.

The other possibility, honestly, is that you're doing a bad job at interviews and your lack of experience in the relevant technologies is a convenient/polite excuse. That sucks, but there you go

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