Ask HN: How can my startup hire a remote employee in Europe?

#1

Post by threauxaway » Mon, Mar 19, 2018, 7:00 PM UTC

Working for a startup with about 30 employees in San Francisco and we want to hire someone in Europe to work for our team. The employee would be a remote hire.

* What do we need to know to hire someone who lives in the EU to work remotely for a US company? * What are the laws / tax implications of hiring someone in the EU? * What are the differences between hiring someone in Italy vs Spain vs France, etc.? Are they vast differences between hiring from each EU country or small?

I've tried doing research on how to hire, but all of the search results seem to be based on getting hired as a remote employee... not how to hire a remote employee.

I'm doing research for our Founders and will present the info/data to them. Also, using a throwaway account since the position is not listed publicly yet. Thanks!

Re: Ask HN: How can my startup hire a remote employee in Europe?

#2

Post by daleholborow » Mon, Mar 19, 2018, 7:14 PM UTC

Why not hire them as a contractor?

Re: Ask HN: How can my startup hire a remote employee in Europe?

#3

Post by threauxaway » Mon, Mar 19, 2018, 7:20 PM UTC

daleholborow wrote: post #2

Why not hire them as a contractor?

We've thought about that, but I think if they're located in some countries, like France, we might run into strict employment issues since they'd be working for us full-time.

But, let me know if I'm wrong in that assumption.

Re: Ask HN: How can my startup hire a remote employee in Europe?

#4

Post by daleholborow » Mon, Mar 19, 2018, 9:17 PM UTC

threauxaway wrote: post #3

daleholborow wrote: post #2

Why not hire them as a contractor?

We've thought about that, but I think if they're located in some countries, like France, we might run into strict employment issues since they'd be working for us full-time. But, let me know if I'm wrong in that assumption.

Well, I am an Australian living in Finland, and there's no reason that I can see that I can't work for whomever I wish (ie perform contracting services) so long as I myself am incorporated / employed and pay the relevant taxes etc. For example, in finland (similar to australia) you can work as what in Aus is called a 'sole trader' or in finland something like 'name business', which basically means self employed entrepreneur. I can do work for local clients, international clients, whatever I like, so long as I take care of my/my company's taxes. I don't see why it would be much different in other EU countries. Think about how upwork and elancer etc operate.. those guys can work for whoever they want.

That said, saying 'we want to hire someone in Europe', is ... rather vague, you realize? What do you want them for? Sales, tech? To start a foreign branch? You'll probably have to narrow your purpose down (to get decent advice, or for your own benefit as well?)

Good luck

Re: Ask HN: How can my startup hire a remote employee in Europe?

#5

Post by thenaturalist » Mon, Mar 19, 2018, 10:31 PM UTC

daleholborow wrote: post #4

threauxaway wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've thought about that, but I think if they're located in some countries, like France, we might run into strict employment issues since they'd be working for us full-time. But, let me know if I'm wrong in that assumption.

Well, I am an Australian living in Finland, and there's no reason that I can see that I can't work for whomever I wish (ie perform contracting services) so long as I myself am incorporated / employed and pay the relevant taxes etc. For example, in finland (similar to australia) you can work as what in Aus is called a 'sole trader' or in finland something like 'name business', which basically means self employed entre…

Careful with that advice. I would assume that in general states are checking in closely for potential of misclassification of employees as independent contractors [0]. If you employ a freelancer as a company you actually have it easy: you don't owe the state pension, social tax and potential health insurance payments (these are components here in Germany). If that person happens to work de facto full time for you (can easily be checked via tax audits of annual income) the blame is on you, the company as you effectively employed someone without paying the respective social taxes.

I'm not a tax consultant myself but in case a government audits your company or the freelancer and finds you guilty of this, the money owed is not a small sum I would imagine. It seems the situation in Germany is that your tax and social security scheme is determined by your living residence. So if you work and live in Germany but work for for a US firm remotely you are bound to the German tax code and entitled to social security services as is anyone else in the country. I would be surprised if France or the Nordics would be less restrictive on this. And it makes sense from a legal intuition standpoint.

Best is probably to consult with other startups which employ folks remotely and check in with an expert.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misclassification_of_employees...

Re: Ask HN: How can my startup hire a remote employee in Europe?

#6

Post by daleholborow » Mon, Mar 19, 2018, 11:37 PM UTC

thenaturalist wrote: post #5

daleholborow wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I am an Australian living in Finland, and there's no reason that I can see that I can't work for whomever I wish (ie perform contracting services) so long as I myself am incorporated / employed and pay the relevant taxes etc. For example, in finland (similar to australia) you can work as what in Aus is called a 'sole trader' or in finland something like 'name business', which basically means self employed entre…

Careful with that advice. I would assume that in general states are checking in closely for potential of misclassification of employees as independent contractors [0]. If you employ a freelancer as a company you actually have it easy: you don't owe the state pension, social tax and potential health insurance payments (these are components here in Germany). If that person happens to work de facto full time for you (ca…

Valid point - when I reread the statement as "hire someone full-time", whereas i had defaulted to "hire someone to do some work". "Would be a remote hire" - should have been the clue :-/

Working "for" the usa company remotely, is I believe, still quite different to "selling services to a foreign us company while self-employed under your own company".

Right now for instance, I have a regular job, plus tominini which allows me to do additional work for whomever I like, with the onus on me to pay taxes / benefits etc.

So yeah, Europe to me seems to take a generally very negative view of the "Uber/food delivery"-style of potentially abusive employee relationships, and you'd have to be careful about that, but I don't think it's an insurmountable hurdle.

I guess narrow down the country and role description and it might get clearer, and contact some other startups like thenaturalist suggests.