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Ask HN: Is S3 down?

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Re: Ask HN: Is S3 down?

#991
post #832
post #753

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've used both Google Cloud and AWS, and as of a year or so ago, I'm a Google Cloud convert. (Before that, you guys didn't at all have your shit together when it came to customer support) It's not in bad taste, despite other comments saying otherwise. We need to recognize that competition is good, and Amazon isn't the answer to everything.

We were on GCP for around a year, it was my decision I really wanted to love GCP and I initially did. But we recently switched to AWS. I think there is little GCP does better than AWS. Pricing is better on paper, but performance per buck seems to be on par. Stability is a lot worse on GCP, and I don't just mean service outages like this one (which they had their fair share) but also individual issues like instances s…

I haven't used AWS, but my experience with AppEngine and by extension GCP is similar.

Just last week I got an email saying that they'd discovered an issue on Google Cloud Datastore where certain (strongly consistent!) queries could have been returning incorrect results for a week long period and that I should check my logs to see if anything important had been affected in my application.

That's not the sort of behaviour that inspires confidence in a service.

Re: Ask HN: Is S3 down?

#992

S3 is currently (22:00 UTC) back up. The timeline, as observed by Tarsnap: First InternalError response from S3: 17:37:29 Last successful request: 17:37:32 S3 switches from 100% InternalError responses to 503 responses: 17:37:56 S3 switches from 503 responses back to InternalError responses: 20:34:36 First successful request: 20:35:50 Most GET requests succeeding: ~21:03 Most PUT requests succeeding: ~21:52

Playing the role of the front-ender who pretends to be full-stack if the money is right, can someone explain the switch from internal error to 503 and back? Is that just them pulling s3 down while they investigate?

S3 is not a monolithic architecture, Amazon is a strong proponent of Service Oriented Architecture for producing scalable platforms.

There are a number of services behind the front end fleet in S3's architecture that handle different aspects of returning a response. Each of those will have their own code paths in the front end, very likely developed by different engineers over the years. As ever, appropriate status codes for various circumstances are something that always seems to spur debate amongst developers.

The change in status code would likely be a reflection of the various components entering unhealthy & healthy states, triggering different code paths for the front end... which suggests whatever happened might have had quite a broad impact, at least on their synchronous path components.

Re: Ask HN: Is S3 down?

#993
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess their bizarre thinking is something along the lines of: "unless we have proof that noone can access the service, we won't change the indicator from green to yellow. Seriously: I don't understand why you guys stay with AWS.

Because you perceive public clouds only as virtual machine providers, that you can replace with other provider in two days. A detailed cloud migration consists of replacing some parts of your software to use managed services provided by a specific cloud provider, and AWS is still has the best service offerings IMHO. When you use these services carefully also you will see that AWS is very cheap and reliable enough. Ou…

(Sorry, I'm late to reply, but since you addended your comment you might still be listening...)

After spending a year evaluating both AWS and GCP (with an emphasis on their managed database services; both SQL and no-SQL) my general feeling is this:

"Microsoft Windows is to Unix as AWS is to GCP".

(Or perhaps closer to the truth: "VMS is to Unix as AWS is to GCP".)

Baically AWS services seem like they are badly designed by buerocratic mediocre engineers following some bureocratic template for "a service".

GCP feels a lot saner (both API- and UI/console-wise). I often got the feeling it's designed by people who:

a) are smart and well-rounded in terms of experiences. It does take cleverness and experience to design something elegant that is also useful.

b) take pride in their work (it does show)

(And then, as a bonus: It's cheaper!)

Re: Ask HN: Is S3 down?

#994
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess their bizarre thinking is something along the lines of: "unless we have proof that noone can access the service, we won't change the indicator from green to yellow. Seriously: I don't understand why you guys stay with AWS.

> Seriously: I don't understand why you guys stay with AWS. You don't seem to have enough experience to comment on the issue.

Please visit this comment sub-tree:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13765786

Re: Ask HN: Is S3 down?

#995

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work in GCP support. I'm really curious: what do you feel changed that led to such improved support? I'd like to make sure we keep doing it.

Chiming in as I noticed the change too. For a long time it was almost impossible to speak with a human - every query was directed to the extensive but often useless support pages. If a human did respond it often seemed like they weren't savvy enough to handle a microwave let alone solve infra issues. Then, about a year or two ago - humans actually started responding to and fixing problems. A welcome change!

Do you have one of the paid support packages, or is this your experience of our google groups/stack overflow etc?

Re: Ask HN: Is S3 down?

#996

Sysadmin: I can forgive outages, but falsely reporting 'up' when you're obviously down is a heinous transgression. Somewhere a sysadmin is having to explain to a mildly technical manager that AWS services are down and affecting business critical services. That manager will be chewing out the tech because the status site shows everything is green. Dishonest metrics are worse than bad metrics for this exact reason. Any…

Thank you for the insight. Could you and/or any sysadmin on here elaborate on what a "nail in the coffin" situation might look like? For example, is this current outage with inaccurate status updates enough to seriously consider migrating to another CDN provider? If so, which one would you migrate to?

Disclaimer, not a job-toting sysadmin quite yet, but here's my 2¢:

- Architectural SPOFs (single points of failure) need to be carefully weighed up in any design, and "ALL our files are on $single_provider" is one such huge red flag. Unfortunately these considerations are all too frequently drowned out by the ease of going with the least path of resistance.

For example GitHub occasionally goes down, which breaks a remarkable amount of infrastructure: a huge number of people don't know how to use Git, do full clones from scratch each time, and have no idea how to work without a server (even though Git is built to work locally); CI systems tend to want to do green-field rebuilds, so start out with empty directory trees and need to do full clones each build (I'm not sure if any CI systems come with out-of-the-box Git caching); GH-powered authentication systems fall apart; etc. Kinda crazy, scary and really annoying, but yeah.

In terms of "nail in the coffin", that depends on a lot of factors, including a subjective analysis of how much local catastrophe was caused by the incident; subjective opinions about the provider's reaction to the issue, what they'll do to mitigate it, perhaps how transparent they are about it; etc.

Ultimately, the Internet likes to pretend that AWS and cloud computing is basically rock-solid. Unfortunately it's not, and stuff goes down. There were some truly redundant architecture experiments in the 80s (for example, the Tandem Nonstop Computer, one of which was recently noted to have been running continuously for 24 years: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13514909) but x86 never really went there, and superscalar computing is built on a sped-up version of the same ideas that connect desktop computers together, so while there are lots of architectural optical illusions, well, stuff falls apart.

- Everyone in this thread is talking about Google Compute Engine, but it really depends on your usage patterns and requirements. GCE is pretty much the single major competitor to AWS, although the infrastructure is _completely_ different - different tools, different APIs, different pricing infrastructure. The problem is that it's not like like MySQL vs PostgreSQL or Ubuntu vs Debian; it's like SQL vs Redis, or Linux vs BSD. Both work great, but you basically have to do twice the integration work, and map things manually. With this said, if you don't have particularly high resource usage, VPS or dedicated hosting may actually work out more cost-effectively.

TL;DR: you go back to the SPOF problem, where _you_ have to foot the technical debt for the reliability level you want. Yay.

Re: Ask HN: Is S3 down?

#997

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Use cloudron.io and install Ghost/Wordpress/Write your own. Just run the server wherever you want.

Interesting that they still host the cloudron.io site on Amazon platform ping cloudron.io -> 54.192.7.94 -> server-54-192-7-94.dfw3.r.cloudfront.net (Amazon Technologies) [1] [1] http://whatismyipaddress.com/ip/54.192.7.94

Correct me if I am wrong but you are pointing out that their website is on a CDN. Are you saying they need to host their website on Wordpress/Ghost? AFAIK, Ghost & Wordpress do not easily scale compared to a CDN if your site has heavy traffic (which landing pages must be engineered for as opposed to small blogs).

Re: Ask HN: Is S3 down?

#998
post #735

Disclosure: I work on Google Cloud. Apologies if you find this to be in poor taste, but GCS directly supports the S3 XML API (including v4): https://cloud.google.com/storage/docs/interoperability and has easy to use multi-regional support at a fraction of the cost of what it would take on AWS. I directly point my NAS box at home to GCS instead of S3 (sadly having to modify the little PHP client code to point it to st…

I'm in the process of moving to GCS mostly based on how byzantine the AWS setup is. All kinds of crazy unintuitive configurations and permissions. In short, AWS makes me feel stupid.

I should add that someone from the AWS team reached out to me in response to this comment asking for feedback on how they can improve their usability. So I give them credit for that.

Re: Ask HN: Is S3 down?

#999

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not knowing your situation exactly, but there could be a cost of running your own infrastructure and not taking advantage of their services? For example, are the chances of losing data higher in riak (take into account disaster and operational bugs that could result in data loss or availability issues) than in one of amazon's supported data stores. I don't necessarily disagree with what you are saying but there is co…

Yes. There's a cost to every decision you make. Sometimes it's the cost of s3 being down. Sometimes it's the cost of some developer time to make services agnostic. The value of that isn't immediately obvious, perhaps. But the developer cost here (my time) was worth it. Our shit wasn't down, while everyone else's was. I also want to point out that I spent minimal time setting this up. We can deploy to GCE or commodity…

You still didn't address the reliability aspect. S3's durability is likely much higher than other solutions you might chose.

Re: Ask HN: Is S3 down?

#1000
post #735

Disclosure: I work on Google Cloud. Apologies if you find this to be in poor taste, but GCS directly supports the S3 XML API (including v4): https://cloud.google.com/storage/docs/interoperability and has easy to use multi-regional support at a fraction of the cost of what it would take on AWS. I directly point my NAS box at home to GCS instead of S3 (sadly having to modify the little PHP client code to point it to st…

i have had problems integrating apache spark using google storage. especially because s3 is directly supported in spark. if you are api compatible with s3, could you make it easy /possible to work with google storage inside spark? remember i may or may not run my spark on Dataproc.

You can use the Google cloud storage connector (https://cloud.google.com/hadoop/google-cloud-storage-connect...) which works with hadoop (and therefore spark).
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