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Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

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Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#961

Post by CRConrad »

spacechild1 wrote: post #285
egypturnash wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An American investment banker was at the pier of a small coastal Mexican village when a small boat with just one fisherman docked. Inside the small boat were several large yellow fin tuna. The American complimented the Mexican on the quality of his fish and asked how long it took to catch them. The Mexican replied, “only a little while.” The American then asked why didn’t he stay out longer and catch more fish? The M…

FYI: this is a variation of a story by Heinrich Böll ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anekdote_zur_Senkung_der_Arbei... ). The original story is set on the west coast of Europe and the tourist is of unknown nationality.

First sentence of that WP article:

> "Anekdote zur Senkung der Arbeitsmoral" ("Anecdote concerning the Lowering of Productivity" in Leila Vennewitz' translation) is a short story by Heinrich Böll about an encounter between an enterprising tourist and a small fisherman, in which the tourist suggests how the fisherman can improve his life.

I don't know Leila Vennewitz, but her translation of at least the title isn't all that great: "Anekdote zur Senkung der Arbeitsmoral" means not "Anecdote concerning the Lowering of Productivity", but "Anecdote for the Lowering of Productivity".

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#962

Post by cutemonster »

engineeringwoke wrote: post #921
Karawebnetwork wrote: post #887

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So I don't think it's unethical to work less as long as your employer is still happy with what you do. Then tell the truth and deal with the consequences.

Why? Perception is reality in engineering. I'm not incentivized to be anything other than slightly above average... people have horrible memories and velocity is very arbitrary. Engineering is a charlatan's paradise full stop; sounding smart is easy. In sales (especially) and marketing, there are real numbers that you drive. Everyone has bad quarters but if it continues, you will be let go.

> sounding smart is easy

If talking with much less technical people

But not if talking with a brighter and more experienced person

>> tell the truth

> Why? Perception is reality in engineering

There's also the saying that goes "pick your battles". -- Compared to other things in life, how important is it that the managers know that in fact you work only so and so much?

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#963

Post by devdas »

mikewarot wrote: post #384
rektide wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is SHOCKING beyond words to me what accepted dogma it is that the human resources/devs only work on one thing at a time, they start at the beginning, plan, write, test, & code review the thing, and then move on. It's a huge waste of human potential. Background processing is vital. Getting hit by the various silly hurdles in the path to shipping- having to go from the elation of getting something done to having to…

>It's hard for me to tell exactly where this sprung up from, how it is so deeply deeply rooted. Industrial mass production makes physical objects with incredible efficiency, once things are up and running. Because it's so effective with atoms, people think it can be just as effective with bits, and they're wrong.

Software development isn't a production problem, it's a design problem.

Software manufacturing is the bit after you compile the code.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#964

Post by ezoe »

cyberpunk wrote: post #801
ezoe wrote: post #798

I feel you. I'm on the same boat except in a situation that just spending more time doesn't increase my productivity. I'm working to maintain a huge system that is kept working and the company I am employed depends on it. It's a mess. You know, it's written in an obscure language not much people knows about so we have no hope of hiring a person who know the language beforehand, almost all original developers were lef…

What language out of curiosity?

Erlang. There is not much reason to use Erlang in the system I'm writing about. We don't even know why they used the Erlang in the first place. The person who was responsible to choose the language in the beginning of the project left the company long time ago, along with most of the initial developers.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#965

Post by [deleted] »

throw54679 wrote: post #318
ConfessionTime wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is interesting the number of people who see this as a problem that needs to be fixed. Since this specific comment is near the top, I might as well address that here. Why should I work more? How will that improve my life? My self-worth is derived from what I do outside of work to the extent that I don't prioritize professional validation. The primary reason I work is for money. I make enough money that I can live a…

>Why work more? I founded a company and we were successful, but we really tried to continue the momentum. We had a group of 7-10 engineers, built over time and strenuously recruited and managed. And we have plateaued over the past 5 years. Now looking back I realized that probably a lot of the engineers had an attitude similar to what you describe. So they really ended up damaging their co-workers, because less growt…

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#966

Post by Chyzwar »

Other good senior people in the team see your performance. In big companies this is normal as nobody will want to upset other people feeling. Managers will also refrain from firing because it reflects on them badly, stop them from building an empire, and hiring is hard.

I am finding that Price's law[1] is very true in programming. You have two pizza teams that have 1-3 top performers carry the rest of the team/project. As long, you are not annoying, team would keep you. There is a very thin line when top performers can become unhappy with a company, project, or team and leave. People that were previously coasting might get more involved or the team implodes.

[1] https://dariusforoux.com/prices-law/

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#967

Post by googlr29783 »

agagrgar wrote: post #73

I'm literally about to get fired from Google for this, possibly today (HR is calling wondering where I am). Dumb thing is, I've been working like crazy on my 20% project. I just can't stand the other one, got an NI on my first (and presumably last) review cycle so pretty much killed any chance of a transfer. I've never outright lied, though certainly hemmed and hawed. And occasionally blatantly "I haven't done anythi…

I'm surprised your manager let you join a 20% project as a noogler. Sounds like poor remote management at least deserves a slice of blame.

The right mental health diagnosis might temporarily shield you from certain employment consequences and longer term actually help you find a sustainable pattern of work and life. Google offers benefits and resources that might help in that area, try them before you lose access.

"a day in the life of an engineer working from home" https://youtu.be/Rgx8dpiPwpA

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#968

Post by cyberpunk »

ezoe wrote: post #964
cyberpunk wrote: post #801

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What language out of curiosity?

Erlang. There is not much reason to use Erlang in the system I'm writing about. We don't even know why they used the Erlang in the first place. The person who was responsible to choose the language in the beginning of the project left the company long time ago, along with most of the initial developers.

Oh dear I hope that wasn’t me. I went through an erlang phase. ;)

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#969

Post by cutemonster »

cashaside wrote: post #881
theshrike79 wrote: post #852

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most upper management aren't hired because they're good at something. They're hired for who they know. Knowing the personal number of CxO from a Fortune 500 company and being familiar enough to just call them is worth a TON of money for the whole company. Management experience is also a plus, but it's not necessary when you have the ability to short-track yourself (and your company) straight to the people who make th…

You think execs get hired based on connections alone? That is pretty absurd. It’s difficult to see value when you have little insight into their day to day. Upper management probably has the same skill distribution of any other job. Meaning your likelihood of working for an incompetent C level is probably roughly the same as working for an incompetent leader at any other level.

> execs get hired based on connections alone

I think you're interpreting what theshrike79 wrote, a bit too literally :-) (agreed, though, about the skill distribution thoughts, I guess)

(Good books, btw, the Hyperion series, theshrike79 :-))

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#970

Post by mbrodersen »

_clhx wrote: post #639
batmaniam wrote: post #22

The same could be asked about upper management. They earn 10x our pay, so their output is 10x more value than our work, and they work 10x harder, right? In our normal 8 hour work day, they must work 80 hours. Except a full day is 24 hours. Why is the onus always on the bottom workers to be honest? Why are we trying to feel guilty about our working hours vs how much we're paid? Because it's clear salary is not tied to…

I'm not upper management. Most upper management gets paid way too much for the value they bring. But, when you have the opportunity to work under an excellent CEO or CTO you will learn that they do bring 10x or even 100x the value you bring to the team.

I have never seen that happen in practice. Can you give an example of a CEO who delivered 100x value to the company you worked for?
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