How much work does an oil sheikh do? If he deserves the billions, you deserve the millions
Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?
931–940 of 1001 posts
Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?
#932Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm happy to finally read a comment that say this isn't a good or normal thing. I was starting to feel a bit of despair. I don't think I've done that much more that you seems to do but I've certainly seen a lot of people do it and it's always been pissing me off. I've always wondered how the world even works when I consider how much I've seen people do that at every level and at every kind of job. Dear original post…
> you really need to start doing something that you enjoy or that motivates you. Screw this advice. The world is filled with and is highly tolerant of mediocrity. Do your best and collect the biggest paycheck that you can. Not everyone gets to have their dream job.
Replace "you really need to start doing something ..."
With "maybe you'd like to consider searching for something ..."
And it's good advice? Everything doesn't need to be taken literally :-)
Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?
#933Earlier quoted context omitted.
(4 Choose 2) is 6. The quote only specified what to do with four of those combinations. What does one do with the other two? Or is it just impossible to be both clever and stupid at the same time? I've had my share of both cleverly stupid ideas and stupidly clever ideas.
You can't be lazy and industrious at the same time, nor clever and stupid. There are only four valid options.
Oh, yes you can. Never seen anyone waste a whole day grinding in a game? Never seen someone pour genius into a non-problem? These things happen all the time, as a result of exactly those intersections.
Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?
#934You are simply realizing just how low the bar actually is. imagine if you can what othet less capable people are doing.
Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?
#935Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes! I bucket people into paddling the right direction, sitting in the boat, and paddling the wrong way. With enough momentum, you can tolerate the people that are sitting in the boat. Sometimes they have good reasons and it's temporary. The people always actively working against progress need to be overboard. Smaller teams may need all paddlers. I'd like to think I'm always paddling and usually the right direction.
I'm like OP, I feel like I paddle along, minimal effort, then sometimes I take some strong strokes and get many of the people that work "the wrong way" to paddle the right way for some strokes and I can continue on momentum for another couple of months. When I'm not 100% sure I'm paddling the right way or management wants me to paddle the wrong way, I don't really peddle, I complain and start playing around with fun…
> sometimes I take some strong strokes and get many of the people that work "the wrong way" to paddle the right way for some strokes and I can continue on momentum for another couple of months.
Welcome to management. ;)
Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?
#936Earlier quoted context omitted.
An American investment banker was at the pier of a small coastal Mexican village when a small boat with just one fisherman docked. Inside the small boat were several large yellow fin tuna. The American complimented the Mexican on the quality of his fish and asked how long it took to catch them. The Mexican replied, “only a little while.” The American then asked why didn’t he stay out longer and catch more fish? The M…
Exactly one of the characters in that story can weather disasters.
Why would an individual have to defend themselves against disasters when they are so simple to mitigate against collectively?
Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?
#937Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Software development isn't a matter of sitting down and generating a fixed amount of code per hour. The rate of writing code is hugely variable... The time not spent typing (or being in meetings, doing admin, etc) isn't actually "unproductive" though. All true statements, but that's not what we're talking about. OP recognizes that he works 5-10 hours a week, and effectively blows the rest of the day off. Reminds me…
1) How did you let this go on for 10 months? 2) If it was so easy to fix, why didn't you do it yourself? Too many meetings?
1) He was on another team the first 6-7 months of that. He was transferred to me on account of previous project being wrong area for him (it required domain knowledge he didn't have and didn't pick up). His former manager had worked with him before, so we gave him benefit of the doubt. After a few weeks of ramp-up on my team, he started giving me productive progress updates throughout every week. "I spent all week debugging such-and-such. I spent half the week helping Joe debug a problem", etc. He was very nice and external signs were fine. Then I saw his actual code was minimal, and sadly I learned that the engineers he kept telling me he was busy helping (which would be super valuable work) weren't actually getting that help -- he'd occasionally answer a question, or spend 15 minutes looking over someone's shoulder.
2) A guy on my team is repeatedly telling me he's on the verge of solving a tough problem, and then I take a look at his code and discover it was a trivial issue all along. No, the answer was not that I should have jumped in earlier and taken over the bug myself.
His story ended by being put on a performance plan, which he failed, and then we let him go. At the end of the day, though, he could very likely have stayed with us, if he just accepted my feedback that his productivity was far lower where it should be, and lower than all his peers. He refused to hear it. "You can't measure my performance based on LOC!" Correct, but the LOC was the first clue that he was delivering nearly zero value.
The reason I even told this story to begin with was because some developers somehow tell themselves that they're super productive despite barely checking in any code. By and large, that can't be true.
Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?
#938This is true for a lot of people in tech, in general. Part of it is because tech people are, on average, much smarter and much more curious than an average person. Now, you take a smart, curious person and you make them work at a computer connected to the internet -- the largest knowledge base ever created. That's like hiring an alcoholic to work at a liqueur store and expecting them not to drink during the work day.
Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?
#939I think there's also something to be said for passive processing. Sometimes I'll know I need to write some code or some function and I'll just think about it in the back of my head while doing other things, sometimes for a whole day or two. Then I'll sit down and write it in like 20-30 minutes. Did I work 20-30 minutes, or have I been working for a day or two? I would say a day or two, and the 20-30 minutes was the t…
For sure, we need to collectively recognise how much real work takes place in this mode. I once collaborated with a colleague to design and implement a data sync framework. For six weeks we chatted about it during our lunch break, while walking from the office to a Japanese takeaway and back again. We'd propose ideas and find weaknesses and flaws in them, and would spend our evenings thinking hard to come up with sol…
Just read an article about employers increasingly monitoring their WFH employees with software installed on their computers. This is the "sitting at a desk and typing" measure of productivity. How do they propose monitoring the "solving problems by thinking hard" measure of productivity?
Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?
#940I think there's also something to be said for passive processing. Sometimes I'll know I need to write some code or some function and I'll just think about it in the back of my head while doing other things, sometimes for a whole day or two. Then I'll sit down and write it in like 20-30 minutes. Did I work 20-30 minutes, or have I been working for a day or two? I would say a day or two, and the 20-30 minutes was the t…
The lack of replies accusing you of immorality, theft, sloth, etc is somewhat surprising given the reactions in the rest of the thread.
Right? The OP is literally saying he slacks off then bullshits his way through meetings and that he regularly doesn't understand what's going on.
Everyone else appears to be talking about time spent directly thinking about a problem - which absolutely can look exactly like you're staring into space and this magic "subconscious processing" everyone claims to do.
That is far too seductive and idea, and far too ego flattering for me to trust it. "I'm so smart I solve problems in my sleep!"
Oh really?
But the phenomenon of solving problems quickly after a break/sleep/shower/whatever is one I recognise too.
Something else I recognise is that I also jump to solutions too quickly, often wrong ones, or by something that feels quit similar, jump to the idea that I don't understand things or that I don't know how to solve a problem.
Either the "wrong idea(s)" or the "no idea" are patterns of thinking that make it that much harder to see the problem a different way, or to think up new approaches. You can absolutely overcome it, but it takes a deliberate effort of will, and possibly explicit step by step techniques to do.
Much easier to just put it down and have a nap or a walk or whatever.
But that time isn't "subconsciously working on the problem", it's time spent letting go of you original ideas, letting those neuron interconnections to loosen up ( or whatever, not a neurologist, can you tell? ) so you can generate new ideas, obviously you haven't forgotten them.. but they have that softening distance to them now, and the no longer carry as much weight.
To take in one more, completely unsubstantiated step further, maybe that what a 10x coder is: someone who can more freely move between their ideas ( naturally or via learned technique ) meaning the the need to sleep on it far less often. Or maybe they give themselves a chance to let go of there currently working on the next and the next ( which I'm sure we all do some of, or every software company would be surrounded by a cloud of Devs, walking or staring off into spec! ) But maybe to 10x engineer does that more readily? Without the the exhausting drain I know I feel jumping from deep thinking on one think to deep thinking on another?
We shouldn't discount how many of the "other things" people list are either directly rejuvenation ( sleep! ) Or at least refreshing via increased bloodflow from some level of physical movement, even if it is just getting up to do the dishes.
Personally I think "well rested me" is of about average intelligence, "well rested and in the zone me" is perhaps a little higher but "tired me"? Wow can that be a big drop!
So.. rest, rejuvenation, letting go of mental models by directing your attention else where all seem like more likely causes than "my brain solves problems without even trying"
( Sorry tsike, kinda went of on a tangent there.. ! )