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Ask HN: What's left for early startup engineers as the company grows?

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Re: Ask HN: What's left for early startup engineers as the company grows?

#91

Post by pbiggar »

rubiquity wrote: post #43
steven2012 wrote: post #16

One thing you need to come to grips is that regardless of how smart you are, the VP of engineering is probably someone that has a lot more experience and clout than you do. If they aren't, then the senior management of the company is terrible. If your company has grown to the size of 40-50 people, that's the time when they need real experience to help drive them forward. They can't take a chance on a great programmer…

Why is it acceptable for the Founder/CEO to continue leading the company at 40+ employees but not acceptable for the engineer to lead an engineering team at 40+ employees? Seems like a double standard.

The two are not equivalent, as you need different attributes in each case. The CEO needs to have the product vision and complete information about the company (see http://www.bhorowitz.com/why_we_prefer_founding_ceos for discussion), which typically only the founding CEO can have. You'll note that this is a continuation of the role they had when the company was small, though of course it requires a massive amount of learning.

However, for all other roles in the company, the important thing is having the experience to scale and lead that part of the company: sales, marketing, product, support, engineering. When the company is young, those roles will be filled by allrounders: people a few years experience who do everything in that area. As the company grows, you'll want to hire VPs who have the skills to lead those areas, often people with >15 years experience as a practitioner and/or leader in those areas.

It's not just engineering: you want a VP of Sales, a VP of marketing, a VP of product, etc. Those people will have the skills to take your existing sales/marketing/product/engineering org, and scale it without damaging it. If you have that skillset in your engineer #2, than it would make sense for them to do that role, but it's unlikely that they do, and certainly doesn't seem like it in th OP's case.

Re: Ask HN: What's left for early startup engineers as the company grows?

#92

Post by chrissnell »

fotoblur wrote: post #82

I see a number of posts saying that you're probably not experienced or qualified enough to hold these other positions. However, I don't think the VP of Eng, Dev Mgr, or OPS Mgr could do what you do...essentially help start and build a company from day one. Those skills you've developed don't have much value at your current company any longer. They are most likely keeping you around for historical value and once the s…

This is great advice. I will also add that if you want a leadership role, model your resume around your leadership experience at this company. You've led a team of 10 people. So say that on your resume. It was your high water mark and you don't have to tell people that you're not leading 10 today. Go out and get that leadership role if that's what you want.

Re: Ask HN: What's left for early startup engineers as the company grows?

#93

Post by briandear »

voidlogic wrote: post #86
itsbonczek wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree with this advice. You should talk to your manager and work out a plan to achieve your career goals within the company. This is a significant part of your manager's job responsibilities, and assuming they are good a good manager, then they will be more than happy to work with you on this. You are obviously an important part of the organization and if they have any common sense, they will want to retain you. And…

As employee #2 he should be talking to (presumably, his friend), the CEO, regardless of who his manager technically is.

Exactly. If he doesn't have an open line with the CEO, then I would leave, assuming I have some percentage of options that had vested. I would stick around long enough to vest, then go start your own thing or be a cofounder of something.

I know this situation well. I am employee #1 in a 55 person company and I feel like I might as well be employee 55. But, since I'm remote, I can do my thing, write code, and generally be left alone while getting paid regularly. So being cut out of the loop does have some advantages, especially if you're remote.

Re: Ask HN: What's left for early startup engineers as the company grows?

#95

Post by [deleted] »

rubiquity wrote: post #43
steven2012 wrote: post #16

One thing you need to come to grips is that regardless of how smart you are, the VP of engineering is probably someone that has a lot more experience and clout than you do. If they aren't, then the senior management of the company is terrible. If your company has grown to the size of 40-50 people, that's the time when they need real experience to help drive them forward. They can't take a chance on a great programmer…

Why is it acceptable for the Founder/CEO to continue leading the company at 40+ employees but not acceptable for the engineer to lead an engineering team at 40+ employees? Seems like a double standard.

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: What's left for early startup engineers as the company grows?

#96

Post by jayp »

dmur wrote: post #25
amirmc wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Leave. If he's got options, they'll be vesting -- typically over a 4yr period. He's 2yrs in so if he decides to leave, then he'll lose half of them. If he's willing to do that, then he'll have to exercise what he already has vested. Does he even have the cash to do that? It's easy to suggest that people just 'move on' but it's important to remember the context.

>If he's willing to do that, then he'll have to exercise what he already has vested. Not necessarily. It depends on the terms of his or her options grant. Many companies give employees a 10 year exercise period after they leave (advocated by Sam Altman: http://blog.samaltman.com/employee-equity ).

A 10-year exercise window has to be extremely rare to the order of non-existing in SV startups. Maybe it's picking up stream since the article was written and I am not aware of it. Can an employee vouch for his/her employer (company) that does this? Do more recent YC companies do this?

In fact, even Quora hadn't actually implemented a 10-year exercisable window by the time (or right before the time) Sam's article was written: see comment at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7610668. Note that the article simply mentions it as an idea; not as an ongoing implementation. I wonder if it is now actually implemented at Quora.

Re: Ask HN: What's left for early startup engineers as the company grows?

#97

Post by cyberpanther »

If I was in your position and not in a lead role I'd be upset too. Either they think your too valuable to lose as a developer or they don't think you can't handle those jobs. Either way you need to express your desire to grow. If nothing happens then it is time to find your next gig. It sounds like your a kick ass developer so I'm sure that won't be hard. Just make sure your next gig knows you want to do more than just development.

Re: Ask HN: What's left for early startup engineers as the company grows?

#98

Post by seanmcelroy »

trhway wrote: post #73
vessenes wrote: post #23

You've got a bunch of options, depending on your interests and skills. You could be a repository-of-lore brilliant coder / guru. Sounds like this is roughly what the CEO has carved out for you right now. You could be CTO/Head of Engineering. You may or may not want this job or be suited to it, based on what you've said so far. You could sink down into the organization as a (hopefully) really rich mid-level engineer a…

> At some level, if you're a few years into vesting, and the company is successful, it may not significantly change your financial outcome to stay -- you have early stage stock in a successful startup. somewhat related question - doesn't the huge taxes on the options exercise upon leaving make that huge difference between leaving and staying? How does people manage it? Doesn't it forces you to stay until the exit?

For the US - Depends on if you're exercising and holding or exercising and selling. If you didn't get the opportunity, or forgot, to take an 83(b) election as a founder, then you've been paying income taxes as your shares vest. If you were keen on taking that 83(b) election, your tax liability is negligible on liquidation and you pay nothing until that point for usual ISO arrangements.

Re: Ask HN: What's left for early startup engineers as the company grows?

#99

Post by hnnewguy »

sunir wrote: post #68

It's important to understand it's business, not personal. I strongly dislike the comments in this thread that say "Leave". That's an emotional reaction but it doesn't help you advance. In fact, you'll slide back down the ladder. You should just explore what is the best option in front of you and do that. Really, if you want more responsibility, you have to sell someone else that you're the best person to have that re…

>In fact, you'll slide back down the ladder

Money, titles, who cares? Life satisfaction is much more important than climbing ladders.

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