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Ask HN: Do you know other firms like Valve or GitHub?

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Re: Ask HN: Do you know other firms like Valve or GitHub?

#91

Post by znq »

pc86 wrote: post #72
znq wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're currently at around 53k€ for someone who works full-time, which is slightly above average for Germany and very high for Southern Europe, where most of our people are from. We also have a few from Latin America, Eastern Europe and Mauritius, where this is also a very good salary. We weren't looking specifically in those countries nor are we limiting ourselves, but it simply happened that we found people through…

Have you had any resistance on that from folks in the US? I live in a very average/slightly below average cost of living area of the US and that's probably 8-10% below what most places around here are offering a developer with 3-5 or 5-7 years of experience. I also noticed that you bonus folks based on pro-activity and other measures, which presumably plays a pretty big role in the decision-making process?

We've only spoken with people in SF and NYC, because that is where our US network reaches into. However, developers there are too expensive for us (at the moment), so it doesn't make much sense.

That said, we've noticed that many people care much more about the freedom and flexibility we over, rather than having a huge salary, as long as the base salary is fair.

With the bonus we want to encourage everyone to think and act like a co-founder. Take responsibility and action where needed instead of just ignoring problems until the shit hits the fan.

Re: Ask HN: Do you know other firms like Valve or GitHub?

#92

Post by znq »

zerr wrote: post #78
znq wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're currently at around 53k€ for someone who works full-time, which is slightly above average for Germany and very high for Southern Europe, where most of our people are from. We also have a few from Latin America, Eastern Europe and Mauritius, where this is also a very good salary. We weren't looking specifically in those countries nor are we limiting ourselves, but it simply happened that we found people through…

And what/how do you charge your clients? Is it hourly based or project based? Could you provide specific details (numbers) for your pricing? Thanks!

There's no general number. It depends on the clients. We have huge companies that pay very well, but we also like to work with startups on interesting projects. If we're really interested in a project we usually try to figure out a way to make it work for everyone.

Re: Ask HN: Do you know other firms like Valve or GitHub?

#93

Post by tikl1 »

joelgascoigne wrote: post #26

At Buffer we've started to move in this direction. I can highly recommend watching this video if you're interested in self-management and the idea of a new management paradigm: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcS04BI2sbk . Frederic's book by the same name also goes into further details and shares several example companies: Buurtzorg, AES, Morning Star, FAVI, RHD and others.

Thank you for that, I loved the talk and will probably order the book.

EDIT: French version of this conference(by the same author): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZKqPoQiaDE

Re: Ask HN: Do you know other firms like Valve or GitHub?

#94

Post by zerr »

znq wrote: post #92
zerr wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what/how do you charge your clients? Is it hourly based or project based? Could you provide specific details (numbers) for your pricing? Thanks!

There's no general number. It depends on the clients. We have huge companies that pay very well, but we also like to work with startups on interesting projects. If we're really interested in a project we usually try to figure out a way to make it work for everyone.

Interesting. Another thing is, how do you determine market price for the project? I mean, your prospective clients might also ask quotes to competing agencies. So how do you know your price is competitive enough?

Re: Ask HN: Do you know other firms like Valve or GitHub?

#96

Post by znq »

zerr wrote: post #94
znq wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no general number. It depends on the clients. We have huge companies that pay very well, but we also like to work with startups on interesting projects. If we're really interested in a project we usually try to figure out a way to make it work for everyone.

Interesting. Another thing is, how do you determine market price for the project? I mean, your prospective clients might also ask quotes to competing agencies. So how do you know your price is competitive enough?

You never really know. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose ;-) But I think in the end people work with us because of our honesty, transparency and the flexibility to adapt to their needs: http://mobilejazz.com/philosophy

We also had cases where potential clients decided to go with a cheaper option and then came back to us to "rescue" the project.

In the end the price itself doesn't say too much. More important is the value you get for that price and that is different for every agency. There are things like quality, being pro-activity and recommending the right things to do (not those that make the agency the most money), experience beyond pure design & development (e.g. marketing apps, getting featured, high App Store ratings and reviews, etc.)

Re: Ask HN: Do you know other firms like Valve or GitHub?

#97

Post by znq »

_mikz wrote: post #57
znq wrote: post #39

Not sure if it's in the same bucket as Valve or GitHub: at Mobile Jazz http://mobilejazz.com we're only 20 people (and that makes things a lot easier), but we've quite a different way of working compared to traditional companies: * We pay fair salaries. For most people in our team it's way more than what they've earned before. * We pay everyone the same (base) salary. Regardless of their role or title. * We pay quart…

Hi from 7th floor (3scale.net)! Good luck with candidates. Looks like pretty nice place to work.

We've regular BBQs. We usually let you guys know. Just come up next time and say hello :-)

Re: Ask HN: Do you know other firms like Valve or GitHub?

#98

Post by marcusf »

wdewind wrote: post #35
marcusf wrote: post #4

I'm subjective, but I think Spotify uses slightly innovative ways of organising. See: * https://labs.spotify.com/2014/03/27/spotify-engineering-cult... * https://labs.spotify.com/2014/09/20/spotify-engineering-cult... Happy to answer questions.

How does accountability work at Spotify? It looks like your squads have a specific goal (and maybe a leader?) but when you get up to the tribe level it wasn't clear if one person is in charge of a tribe, or if a product, design and tech lead all share authority. If that is true, do you guys not suffer from the tyranny of structurelessness? How do you do strategic planning/coordination? How do teams that are not engin…

Sorry for late answers here but thanks for asking questions!

> How does accountability work at Spotify? It looks like your squads have a specific goal (and maybe a leader?) but when you get up to the tribe level it wasn't clear if one person is in charge of a tribe, or if a product, design and tech lead all share authority. If that is true, do you guys not suffer from the tyranny of structurelessness? How do you do strategic planning/coordination?

Squads don't have leaders, but they do have product owners who ultimately owns the roadmap of the product owned by that squad. A tribe is lead by a trio of engineering, product and design. Responsibility for the various facets of the tribes output is divided between the three roles.

> How do teams that are not engineering focused get stuff done? For instance a customer support team or marketing team - would it have its own engineers and engineering management?

Yeah, the tech/product side of that have homes in tribes as well.

> Edit: finally, how long have you worked at Spotify with this culture?

I've been here 2.5 years. This structure has been in place for roughly three years, maybe a bit more.

Re: Ask HN: Do you know other firms like Valve or GitHub?

#99

Post by marcusf »

SaturnMoth wrote: post #31
fractalsea wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently spoke to a recruiter at Skyscanner, and he mentioned that they have also adopted a similar model to Spotify. He called the model "Squads and tribes".

I work for Skyscanner, and can confirm this. It's a very effective model for managing a business this size, and IMHO fosters innovation within the business. Very basic description of the model as it is at Skyscanner: Tribes - High level products (hotels, flights, car hire) Chapters - "Departments"; areas of expertise (data acquisition, front end) Squads - Autonomous project units (New features, development of an exis…

Cool to hear our model is getting adopted. A big difference here is that chapters at Spotify aren't departments, they are usually fairly small (5-10 people), and that squads are long lived, rather than project focused.

Re: Ask HN: Do you know other firms like Valve or GitHub?

#100

Post by marcusf »

benaston wrote: post #55
SaturnMoth wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work for Skyscanner, and can confirm this. It's a very effective model for managing a business this size, and IMHO fosters innovation within the business. Very basic description of the model as it is at Skyscanner: Tribes - High level products (hotels, flights, car hire) Chapters - "Departments"; areas of expertise (data acquisition, front end) Squads - Autonomous project units (New features, development of an exis…

I suppose the difficult thing to gauge is whether using these cool-sounding names has any effect.

That's a good question. I think about it as a way to distinguish from e.g. departments, projects etc and set the connotation that these are different things. If you use them to mean a 1:1 mapping to e.g. projects, then it falls apart. The terms aren't important per se.

In other words – you can't make a race horse by painting a pig brown.

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