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Ask HN: Is it possible to have a structured work day in software dev?

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Re: Ask HN: Is it possible to have a structured work day in software dev?

#91

Post by bamboozled »

yrgulation wrote: post #80
bamboozled wrote: post #31

Discount everything I'm going to say if: * You're meetings go later than midnight or 1am, I think that's unreasonable. * You're working more than 8 hours a day. I also used to complain to myself about this a lot, then I became resentful and I became kind of grumpy / surly in the meetings. I complained to my managers about it and then I realized, for them, meeting attendance was more important than anything else. So I…

> So I just adapted my schedule to that aim and it was a success. Stockholm syndrome, maybe a bit of ptsd. I’d not follow such advice @op. Find a place that respects you.

What are you talking about?

Honestly, on my late meeting days, I just work about 3 hours and attend the meetings late at night, because that's what's expected of me and that's enough. The meetings can be intense so I just save myself for them and generally enjoy my day.

My company respects me a lot, but it also respects the fact that it's not all "one timezone is important and others suck" We have to meet with people all over the world and sometimes, it's my time to compromise and meet / work late?

Re: Ask HN: Is it possible to have a structured work day in software dev?

#92

Post by bamboozled »

jll29 wrote: post #89
Rygian wrote: post #16

I work a strict 9am–6pm schedule from western Europe, and interact with both Asian and American colleagues. I simply decline all meetings that are outside of my work window, and it would probably be against the law for my management to expect me to do otherwise ("right to disconnect"). I do know, however, that some of my colleagues in Asian countries feel an non-official pressure to accept late-evening meetings so th…

I think cross TZ meetings should not recur in the same TZ. Once way to make things more fair is to set up two or three bi- or three-weekly recurring meetings to cover all participants time zones. So everyone gets it to happen in their own TZ at least every other week or so. I know the practice is often different, depending on where the company's headquarters are, but I encourage folks to spread the rotating TZ idea o…

We do this too, but according to others, it would be against the right to disconnect most likely.

Re: Ask HN: Is it possible to have a structured work day in software dev?

#93

Post by bamboozled »

jrumbut wrote: post #65
bamboozled wrote: post #31

Discount everything I'm going to say if: * You're meetings go later than midnight or 1am, I think that's unreasonable. * You're working more than 8 hours a day. I also used to complain to myself about this a lot, then I became resentful and I became kind of grumpy / surly in the meetings. I complained to my managers about it and then I realized, for them, meeting attendance was more important than anything else. So I…

Yeah, figuring out what you've really been hired to do is so important to happiness. We all have our own idea of what excellence in software engineering looks like, but sometimes we're actually working as chairsitters, other times we're email account managers, sometimes we were only hired so our name/expertise/certifications can be listed on the "About Us" page. Most of us would say an engineer can still be excellent…

I hear you, but don't see the parallels.

I'm talking about meeting attendance being important not just "chair sitting". It's important as a senior engineer to contribute to meetings for planning, setting direction, performance reviews etc. Which is what I'm doing in these meetings.

At one stage I was busy with projects and I'd refuse to attend the late night meetings, because I was busy, I thought just coding was what was important. Then I started to attend the meetings, wake up at 6am and work again. But that's when I realized that, the waking up early and working wasn't what they wanted from me , they wanted me to contribute to the meetings.

So now I reserve myself more for the important meetings task.

Re: Ask HN: Is it possible to have a structured work day in software dev?

#94

Post by jenscow »

Rygian wrote: post #48
bamboozled wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your attitude is unreasonable in some ways. With remote work, you can (I'm assuming) plan your day, work your hours that suits your team. This includes taking your kids to the park during daylight hours, then working from say 5pm - midnight. The right to disconnect feels more about letting people disconnect "after hours". But this depends on your hours.

I fail to see what is unreasonable in my attitude, you give no explanation in your comment. My "team" is composed of around 700 people across Asia and Europe. My kids are in school during work hours. My 6pm—midnight slot is strictly private life and there is no reason for it to be otherwise. So, your last line contradicts the rest of your own comment.

I think the unreasonable part of it is, if the other participants were in the same mindset then there would be no meeting.

I'm all for restricting employers from my personal space, however I would expect the same to be applied to all other members rather than be a special case.

Personally, I tend to rotate the awkward meetings so it sucks equally rather than weighted more on someone else. As a remote worker, myself and my family are ok with that because I'm available during the daytime.

Re: Ask HN: Is it possible to have a structured work day in software dev?

#95

Post by bamboozled »

RamblingCTO wrote: post #43
bbarn wrote: post #25

Uptime rates should have no connection to your work hours. 99.99% uptime does not mean you need to be on a meeting every night. Your manager is bad. Really bad. Becoming a manager doesn't mean you put on some ring and now you're in the "inevitably bad club". Like others have said, find a new job that respects you.

> Your manager is bad. Really bad. This. Find a new job. That's everything you need to know. /e: also, "I feel so burned out and anxious all the time, not because of overwork, but due to a lack of formal structure in my work day." Please do it asap and treat yourself to at least two weeks of personal time before switching jobs. You're shortening your lifespan here because someone else is doing a shitty job (and I not…

This is assuming it's easy to find a new job, I don't think it's all that easy right now.

Re: Ask HN: Is it possible to have a structured work day in software dev?

#96

Post by ianbutler »

jenscow wrote: post #94
Rygian wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fail to see what is unreasonable in my attitude, you give no explanation in your comment. My "team" is composed of around 700 people across Asia and Europe. My kids are in school during work hours. My 6pm—midnight slot is strictly private life and there is no reason for it to be otherwise. So, your last line contradicts the rest of your own comment.

I think the unreasonable part of it is, if the other participants were in the same mindset then there would be no meeting. I'm all for restricting employers from my personal space, however I would expect the same to be applied to all other members rather than be a special case. Personally, I tend to rotate the awkward meetings so it sucks equally rather than weighted more on someone else. As a remote worker, myself a…

That's not their fault or problem though. It's the company's.

Re: Ask HN: Is it possible to have a structured work day in software dev?

#97

Post by mschuster91 »

> Is there a sub-field in software dev where in I can login at a specific time / logout at a specific time and not have to worry about work after I log out.

Yes: public service. At least in Western-ish countries, government employees are among the best protected classes regarding worker rights, however you will suffer hard hits in payment compared to FAANG and friends, and bureaucracy may make your work life hell in another way - think like waiting weeks to get access rights to a file server or your building keys.

Re: Ask HN: Is it possible to have a structured work day in software dev?

#98

Post by kilburn »

shaoonb wrote: post #82
vladvasiliu wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can be, but people have to be a bit flexible on both sides. The most extreme example I have is myself, in France, having calls with people in New Zealand. That's an 11-hour difference. Basically, we'd have them at 8 AM CEST, which is 7 PM NZDT. 8 AM is somewhat early by Paris standards (usual office day begins at 9 - 9:30, with many people coming in around 10) but it's still feasible. I don't know how the day is o…

I've been on the other end of that (taking calls in NZ from Spain and the UK) and agree. From what I can tell, working hours culture is very much the same in New Zealand as it is in France. Those in Spain always seem to be working late to suit NZ schedules, but I don't know if that's a normal thing or just our company.

It's not normal to work past 8pm in Spain. However, I know several people happily attending international meetings from home between 8-11pm because 8pm is the standard go to bed time for the kids.

Re: Ask HN: Is it possible to have a structured work day in software dev?

#99

Post by micromacrofoot »

Rygian wrote: post #16

I work a strict 9am–6pm schedule from western Europe, and interact with both Asian and American colleagues. I simply decline all meetings that are outside of my work window, and it would probably be against the law for my management to expect me to do otherwise ("right to disconnect"). I do know, however, that some of my colleagues in Asian countries feel an non-official pressure to accept late-evening meetings so th…

A similar thing happens at my employer. Westerners work more regular daytime hours, there’s no obvious pressure for asians to work nights, but almost all of them are.

Re: Ask HN: Is it possible to have a structured work day in software dev?

#100

Post by ElevenLathe »

I've had weird hours and days my whole career, but have always pushed back on unpaid overtime (and it all is when they classify you as exempt/salaried) including uncompensated on-call.

IMO it's possible to limit your hours, though you might have to work odd ones.

The only way to meaningfully have control over your schedule is to be independently wealthy, or to live in an advanced social democracy, which amounts to the same thing.

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