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Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?
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Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?
#92Earlier quoted context omitted.
The vast, vast majority of companies in the world would not pay massively over market rates to their staff. To minimise costs and maximise profits (without exploiting anyone of course) is the raison d'etre for a business, and is in no way unethrical.
I don't disagree with you but I think we may have differing definitions of "exploitation." To generate more value for a company than you receive in wage is to be exploited, in my book, and is subsequently unethical. The way out of this situation is unclear but to pretend that this is not the case helps neither man nor beast.
In order for employment to be stable over the long-run, the productive employee has to create more value for the employer than they receive. (Employers have all kinds of overheads, unproductive employees, and friction/loss that has to be covered in order for the employer to not run out of money.)
I hope (and work to ensure) that my employer gets an over-unity multiple of value from me and my team’s work. That keeps everyone happy over the long run.
Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?
#93No post body was provided.
Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?
#94If you wonder why an argument might be controversial, it can helpful to imagine how it would sound like in mirror world: Assume for a moment that working remotly and a flexible workday would have been always the default. And now some companies decide: Hey let's contractually enforce a 9 hour continuous workday where all our workers will be locked in a big ugly building that we build just for that purpose (Btw. at lea…
Disclaimer: I support fully remote work and will likely never be returning to office in my lifetime if I can help it. Here I play devil's advocate. Even though it is a hypothetical world you've constructed, you still framed it from the perspective of this world. I can do the same thing you did with a different bias. Imagine a world where everyone is socially isolated, forced to work 8 hours a day from their living sp…
> It all doesn't sound so bad when you frame it differently
I disagree, it still sounds bad.
It sounds like elementary school for adults.
Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?
#95Outsourcing existed before covid, it's swings and roundabouts. Most orgs are trapped in a way by their IT dept. Could they really pull off a total outsourcing gig without a business ending walkout / strike action or just dirty tricks from angry employee's who's motivation falls through the floor. I would worry less about this, keep coding, get more exercise and consider seeing about scheduling meetings at equidistant…
Speaking from a purely tech perspective:
Outsourcing is one of those things that a fresh MBA suggests because it cuts initial costs so dramatically.
Of course, you get what you pay for. And the most talented labor is paid highly for a reason. Replacing one talented (and expensive) engineer with 3-5 less talented engineers can be a recipe for disaster. Outsourcing usually starts when a company has an opening that they can't find a good domestic candidate for. So they outsource the role to a company in a foreign nation that promises the same quality of work for less money.
It's actually pretty rare that the initial goal is to replace the best engineers with cheaper copies. It most often starts from the inability to find a single candidate that meets the needs of the position.
Lot's of folks talk about outsourcing with the implied assumption that you can find the same quality of labor for a cheaper price. But this is very rarely the case.
Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?
#96I am in the same boat, and I recognize that my desire for office life requires others to also come into the office. Reading this thread, it seems that the vast majority of people in this industry prefer WFH, and people who prefer WFO may have to choose specific companies or reconsider this industry.
Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?
#97> And finally, I feel no one else is realizing that they are happily hacking away at the amazingly well-paid branch they're sitting on. As soon as a company's IT department is practically fully remote, why should they page a German wage for someone who is a face on a screen, when they can pay a fraction for that same face broadcasted from a few hundred kilometers further east or south? German is hardly used in busine…
> a decent company will […] Having worked for a bunch of decent companies in the past, the only consistent pattern I’ve seen is “A decent company will be put out of business by a similar but more-willing-to-cut-corners company”. Thanks, capitalism ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
As a veteran of ten startups and three larger companies, I don't think this is necessarily true. Companies that fail to provide a good work environment often pay a penalty in lost knowledge, hiring/training costs, internal dissension, etc. Continuity and familiarity can bring tangible benefits in addition to just feeling good. It might well be true that the benefits of being decent are outweighed by other factors, but it doesn't mean they're absent or negative.
Also, the portrayal of hiring workers from cheaper locales as an unqualified negative is quite flawed. Bad for the incumbents, perhaps, but good for the new entrants. Many might say that increasing the role of merit vs. accidents of birth in hiring is a good thing. Who's to say that the "decent" company is the one perpetuating global inequity?
Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?
#98Outsourcing existed before covid, it's swings and roundabouts. Most orgs are trapped in a way by their IT dept. Could they really pull off a total outsourcing gig without a business ending walkout / strike action or just dirty tricks from angry employee's who's motivation falls through the floor. I would worry less about this, keep coding, get more exercise and consider seeing about scheduling meetings at equidistant…
Speaking from a purely tech perspective: Outsourcing is one of those things that a fresh MBA suggests because it cuts initial costs so dramatically. Of course, you get what you pay for. And the most talented labor is paid highly for a reason. Replacing one talented (and expensive) engineer with 3-5 less talented engineers can be a recipe for disaster. Outsourcing usually starts when a company has an opening that they…
Those MBA's dont' know, and their bosses sometimes forget, that long term cheap stable employee's who keep the magic happening are in a way an like an appreciating asset. As long as what they know is in use, they are relevant and probably to costly to replace. Cheaper to buy a new MBA and get a different suggestion.
Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?
#99>"On the contrary, many are screaming in outrage if asked to come to the office even for a single day a week and threaten to quit."
Because for them it is nothing but useless waste of their time.
>"Have a lot of people realized they don't actually like being among other people, apart from their closest friends and family?"
I like being around friends (not necessarily closest) but on my own terms, when I feel like it and they're in a mood as well. Liking it because you have no option but be there from 9 to 5 - sorry, I have better things to do with my life. I suspect that there are enough people that have the same feeling.
>"horror of commute doesn't make up for the gains of socializing"
Socializing can and is being perfectly achievable outside of the office. If one can't find people to talk to outside of work - it indicates a bigger problem I think. I am not against having coworker friends but in my view it is just an extra, usually I prefer to find people elsewhere.
Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?
#100I also work in Berlin and are making it a habit to go back to the office more. Yesterday was a specially good day because of some incentives our office was half full again. It was such an awesome change from working away on your own at home with perfect silence to a more buzzing and clicky workspace. I could speak to people about issues directly by simply nudging them and have answers right away (I dislike video call…
> I could speak to people about issues directly by simply nudging them
Who would do such a nasty thing? When in the office I usually do not just enjoy the cubicles scenery and meditate to keyboard clicks. I am in the middle of something and getting to that middle requires some diving and concentration.
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