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Ask HN: Have you ever heard of users demonstrating against software?

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Re: Ask HN: Have you ever heard of users demonstrating against software?

#91
I have seen it, also in healthcare. When the software gets in the way of providing care, or the implementation is so buggy it can put patients at risk, or when the burden it places on providers impedes their ability to work, then they will protest.

We need more of this.

Re: Ask HN: Have you ever heard of users demonstrating against software?

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclaimer: My Epic experience is around a decade old. I never saw a riot, but I definitely saw providers who hated Epic when it was installed. As in people literally screaming at the top of their lungs at IT nerds. I saw a few contributing factors: 1. Epic supports making all the technically-mandatory-but-not-mandatory-if-you're-in-a-hurry data actually mandatory, so providers have more typing and less ability to ju…

>technically-mandatory-but-not-mandatory-if-you're-in-a-hurry :/

In my experience, the software development profession could spend a long, long time doing some self-reflection about this one. It's eloquently stated, and something a lot of developers could learn. Too many times, I've seen overly restrictive inputs cause users to hate and distrust the software. Ironically, overly restrictive inputs cause users to think that the software doesn't properly understand the domain, which is the root of mistrust.

We should be very liberal with accepted inputs. I call them "Fuck It Buttons." There are lots of cases where you want a "Fuck It" button to just go around all the data entry and get an answer or move on with minimum info. Warn that the data isn't complete and we're using defaults, and don't just make output look the same as a complete workflow, but let them go through, nonetheless. Health care is just one example, but "Fuck It" comes up in every industry.

This is the UI/UX equivalent of knowing which hills to die on.

Re: Ask HN: Have you ever heard of users demonstrating against software?

#94
post #27

The Robodebt scandal in Australia didn't spill over to violence in the streets, but it came close. Robodebt was a debt collection system introduced by the Federal government to recover supposed overpayments of social security. It was flawed at every level, including software design, and resulted in nationwide protests. see https://www.canberratimes.com.au/story/6037228/robo-debt-cen...

Similar but worse, the Horizon scandal in the UK where bugs in Fujitsu stocktaking software sent post office workers to jail and ruined lives because administrators took the software's side when it found accounting shortfalls https://www.bbc.com/news/business-56718036

Horizon was horrific. The spec was so old that the contract was with colonial favourites ICL, before they were fully renamed Fujitsu. Several postmasters committed suicide when the Royal Mail initiated fraud causes against them that were caused by Horizon accounting errors.

Re: Ask HN: Have you ever heard of users demonstrating against software?

#95
post #17

Old school RuneScape is an mmorpg where each game update goes to a vote, and if it doesn’t get 75% approval the updates are not worked on by devs and don’t get released. The community feels a strong ownership and connection over the game. So much so that when the development company (Jagex) makes a wrong decision, it’s common for users to “riot” in game. They go to a specific world, at a specific town, place down spe…

Usually I hear bad things about Jagex, I’m surprised they have a system in OSR where they don’t make changes without user approval

As a current player, I feel a lot of the bad things talked about Jagex are more on the management side rather than the development side. Most of the known OSRS devs and community staff are held in pretty high regard, and my limited interaction with the RS3 community suggest some of the same. The most regular complaints are about how many microtransactions are in RS3, how poorly the devs are paid (though, that's also the video game industry as a whole), and specific events that seem to be very much streamlined through by management and then later patched up after community backlash.

Some changes do get into the game without player approval. The idea behind them is that some changes are necessary for the long-term integrity of the game (in-game economy, gear balancing, etc). They are always controversial.

Re: Ask HN: Have you ever heard of users demonstrating against software?

#96
post #51

There was a case more than 20 years ago of a similar revolt against a Canadian hospital's automated drug dispensing machine that would only let nurses withdraw the exact dose of medicine a patient needed in a short window around when patient was supposed to take each dose. It was so bad it got written up into an academic article: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/016224390202700...

That reminds of that Star Trek episode “Critical Care” where people only get the resources allowed by an AI overseer. How does this even pass an early review?

The problem with substance abuse, and stealing to sell, was then and remains now a widespread problem in Canada's hospitals.

Re: Ask HN: Have you ever heard of users demonstrating against software?

#98

There was a case more than 20 years ago of a similar revolt against a Canadian hospital's automated drug dispensing machine that would only let nurses withdraw the exact dose of medicine a patient needed in a short window around when patient was supposed to take each dose. It was so bad it got written up into an academic article: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/016224390202700...

> they resented features that controlled their time and their autonomy Of course. Nobody likes being controlled by software. The computer is supposed to obey us, not the other way around. Software controlling humans is a violation of basic human dignity.

Pretty much same argument could be said against checklists ('paper controlling humans is a violation of basic human dignity'), but it is a thing that consistently improves outcomes in medicine.

In general, it is restricting autonomy in order to improve consistency and quality.

Re: Ask HN: Have you ever heard of users demonstrating against software?

#99
Related: a very good article by Atul Gawande (author of The Checklist Manifesto) that talks about not only problems with medical software, but also user-led efforts to make it better [1]. Worth reading to the end.

[1] https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/11/12/why-doctors-ha... (Archived: https://archive.ph/PlnQl )

Re: Ask HN: Have you ever heard of users demonstrating against software?

#100
Something about implementing a workflow process that involves collecting inputs from multiple users is really hard. Epic's system basically collects inputs from schedulers, front desks, nurses, technicians, doctors, billings, etc. Each step of the process depends on previous step. If step X fails, but the result of the failure can only be recognized at step X+10, it will probably throw the workflow engine into chaos ...
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