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Ask HN: Should I move to California or Germany as a SWE with 2 small kids?

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Re: Ask HN: Should I move to California or Germany as a SWE with 2 small kids?

#91
I'm on the DevOps/SRE side, but from my experience moving close to my wife's family (on her dad's side) has been wonderful. Though there aren't phenomenal prospects for onsight jobs in this area, I've been working remote with decent pay considering the cost of living in the area. Having grandparents for the kids to visit, not to mention cousins to play with, is far more rewarding to me than the ideal job. of course there are multiple factors, such as Do you like your spouse's family? Or do you think your family would be more or less beneficial for the kids/you/your spouse?

in short, my family isn't yours. But giving up the opportunity provided by popular cities was good for me in the end.

Re: Ask HN: Should I move to California or Germany as a SWE with 2 small kids?

#92
post #62

California Über Alles As a person who lived both in Germany (Baden-Württemberg) and Califorina I will strongly suggest California. Here are some pluses: - California has better salaries - California has much more opportunity (starting company is easier, etc.) - California has much nicer weather. And beautiful coast and mountains. And desert (Palm Springs and Coachella Valley area) is great too. - California is in US…

California Uber Alles!! California always and forever. There is indeed gold in them thar heels, no matter what they do to San Francisco. Los Angeles is vibrant, yet car laden. Money is way better in California, and you won’t be seen as — uncivil, overly ambitious; too American, with American expectations, and a workaholic. In Europe they work to live, here we sleep in the factory or the offices. You can incorporate a new agency in seconds! USA #1

Re: Ask HN: Should I move to California or Germany as a SWE with 2 small kids?

#93
Germany. Your daughters will be safer there. Your quality of life will be higher. People are just nicer (personal experience). Your access to world cultures is better. The education system is far superior. I cannot think of two things that are better in CA that you can't find within a reasonable proximity to basically anywhere in Germany. (I can think of one: sour dough bread is better in SF)

You made it out. Don't make the mistake of coming back. The US is broken.

Re: Ask HN: Should I move to California or Germany as a SWE with 2 small kids?

#94
post #79
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is rural Germany friendly towards foreigners, especially non white ones? I've heard in Germany (and Europe in general) you'll forever be a stranger, while America is more of a melting pot and immigrants are allowed to become Americans.

No experience of my own, as I am German, but there are idiots everywhere, including Germany. Before I start, I let me emphasize that I do not condone what I am going to describe, I am just describing it from my perspective. I think it's more important how you dress than the color of your skin. If you dress in your home country's traditional clothes, you will probably experience more hostility than when you are wearin…

> The color of your skin will also be a factor, certainly more so than in the US

You sure about that. Out police force is known for being more liberal about shooting people based on skin color. I'm not German so I won't argue with you but I don't get the impression that there's as much institutional racism there.

Re: Ask HN: Should I move to California or Germany as a SWE with 2 small kids?

#95
German here living in CA.

My take is as follows (YMMV):

- We'll live and work in CA until scrappy financial independence is possible in Germany (ballpark ~3-3.5M net worth).

- Once we could comfortably retire in Germany, we'll decide whether to move back there or keep working just to stay in CA (due to cost of living FIRE in CA seems out of reach)

- In some sense starting out in CA maintains more optionality (it'll be easier to move from CA to Germany than vice versa)

Advantages of CA:

- The weather

- Monthly savings (pay - expenses; much higher than Germany if you avoid lifestyle creep)

- Career opportunities (lots of interesting work)

- Outdoors (subjective)

- Food

- If your kids grow up in LA or SF, I'd say there's a pretty good chance they'll stick around close by when they grow up

- Vibe ~ more optimism about the future and the role technology can play

- The earlier you move and buy a house, the earlier you can lock in your real estate taxes (Proposition 14 [2] renders CA hostile to those that 'come later'). Admittedly, it's already pretty late in the game.

Disadvantages of CA:

- Housing prices are 1M+ (although the market seems to be changing now that interest rates are going up [1])

- Homelessness

- Getting into good public schools needs a lot of planning (including buying in pricey neighborhoods)

- Related: kids in elite schools / social circles seem to be under a lot of pressure to perform from day 1 (IMHO a consequence of the winner takes all economy)

- Life is work centric

- Earthquakes

- Air quality (traffic and wildfires)

Advantages of Germany:

- Great public schools & ~free childcare

- Pretty safe environment (although debatable in some cities like Berlin)

- Generally stable, good job security etc

- Once you build real relationships with people, you may find friends for life

- Clean air and water in most places

Disadvantages of Germany:

- House prices per median income are pretty high. It's particularly crazy expensive in cities if you want a single family home due to super low interest rates (SFH can cost 1M+ despite median salaries being much lower than CA)

- Might be less "accepting" of foreigners (I live in CA and never feel bad about speaking with an accent as most people I work with do as well)

- Germans start work and school at ridiculously early hours (I still recall walking to school in the dark every day in winter)

- Rapidly aging population (although some is offset by immigration)

[1] https://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2022/06/1st-look-at-local...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978_California_Proposition_13

Re: Ask HN: Should I move to California or Germany as a SWE with 2 small kids?

#96
post #78

How can you even compare Europe to US in software engineering context? Europe on average has miserable salaries and crazy taxes.

If those taxes can avoid school shooting, that's worth it.

Im not sure that the probability to become victim of a school shooting is higher than got hit by a car or beaten to deth in some dense german urban areas.

Re: Ask HN: Should I move to California or Germany as a SWE with 2 small kids?

#97
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No experience of my own, as I am German, but there are idiots everywhere, including Germany. Before I start, I let me emphasize that I do not condone what I am going to describe, I am just describing it from my perspective. I think it's more important how you dress than the color of your skin. If you dress in your home country's traditional clothes, you will probably experience more hostility than when you are wearin…

> The color of your skin will also be a factor, certainly more so than in the US You sure about that. Out police force is known for being more liberal about shooting people based on skin color. I'm not German so I won't argue with you but I don't get the impression that there's as much institutional racism there.

Darker skin tones are very rare in most parts of Germany, especially in rural areas. There are lots of immigrant from Turkey, southern Europe, Asia and northern Africa, so it's not like everybody is pale white. But truly dark skin is something most people are not used to and will definitely stand out. Much more than in the US. Police is known to use racial profiling in many cities - which race also depends on who is controlling the illegal drug market in that city. There are many people complaining about racial profiling. Police shootings are not an issue though, for any skin color.

Re: Ask HN: Should I move to California or Germany as a SWE with 2 small kids?

#98

30000* Germany. You get like an entire month paid vacation. Companies are incredibly thirsty for talent there and job security is high. The people are very nice and the job pay isn't worse enough to worry about being poor. Most large cities are within a few hours of whatever small town, so you don't have to be in the middle of a field somewhere if that isn't ideal. And for your kids the education system is waaaaaaay…

She's quite torn. She doesn't actually like Germany all that much. She left about 8 years ago, and has never worked there. But, she's an only child, and she's very close to her parents. So, in addition to the support they could provide in raising our family, she feels guilty about leaving them in Germany. If it weren't for her parents, she said she would push for the US. For all its problems, she likes how friendly a…

You want your kids doing active shooter drills in class every year a few times like the fire drills we had?

Or those incredible active shooter SIMULATION DRILLS, where they bring a guy with a fake gun in?

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