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Ask HN: How do you deal with lies on the internet?

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Re: Ask HN: How do you deal with lies on the internet?

#91

Post by modriano »

We've got a pretty good method for determining what's true. It allowed homo sapiens, a species that has existed for about 300,000 years, to go from developing the first working airplane to the first spaceship capable of putting a human on the moon and successfully bringing them safely back to earth in just 66 years. This method is called "science" but the essence is just to be very observant of reality and [to corroborate observations by logically reasoning about what else would have to occur along with the original observation, then checking to see if those things happened]. Reality is consistent, so all of the artifacts of an event, if accurately recorded, will be consistent.

Often it's difficult to get good measurements on phenomena (eg on a specific battle in a war before the advent of freely searchable, practically real-time satellite imagery) which may mean you have to seek out reports from first-hand witnesses/participants/victims. In those cases, I advise searching for source documents from first-hand sources/legitimate researchers and available source footage, and if you can authenticate the material, you can use it to guide formation of an understanding. There's a lot of uncertainty in this and it takes time, but if you really want to know an answer you have to put the time in.

Obviously it isn't viable for you to dig into every single thing, so I'd say my shorthand method is to lean towards experts who have access to source data/data generating processes of interest and read their papers.

Regarding trusting news sources: all news sources misinterpret some things, but not to the same degree. The editors and journalists are the real QA mechanisms, so use the past accuracy of the company and the journalist in determining the baseline amount of uncertainty you should have in any specific piece of reporting.

Re: Ask HN: How do you deal with lies on the internet?

#92

Post by pastacacioepepe »

cowpig wrote: post #86
pastacacioepepe wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I watch both western and eastern media because I don't trust either. By putting together information from both sides, I try to get an objective point of view. Anyway I must say, the west has put out many more lies for what I've seen so far.

Just think about that from a logical perspective: if you start your proof with false axioms, you can never produce anything true. You can only produce a universe of internally-consistent false statements. The only way out of the propaganda trap is to find organizations that legitimately care about good journalism. They definitely exist! One place to start might be Wikipedia, the culture there is very much "organize k…

> One place to start might be Wikipedia, the culture there is very much "organize knowledge" as opposed to "achieve some political end".

There's a crowd right now trying to remove any reference to neo-nazism in the Azov Battalion wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Azov_Battalion&ac...

Please go ahead and verify it yourself. Among this crowd there are the same people that curate the sections about the Uyghur oppression in China. I don't fully trust Wikipedia either for these reasons.

> Just think about that from a logical perspective: if you start your proof with false axioms, you can never produce anything true. You can only produce a universe of internally-consistent false statements.

I strongly disagree. By watching propaganda from both sides, I can easily understand what are the interests in play and what is each side's reasoning. By confronting it then with the rest of the independent information I can form a cohesive opinion. I won't trust anyone to provide me with "news" at the moment. We have to do the hard job and create our news with the sparse information available.

Re: Ask HN: How do you deal with lies on the internet?

#93

Post by kortex »

pastacacioepepe wrote: post #56

Good question. Most of the news you read about the conflict are fake at the moment. Videogames footage has been used, old footage from years ago as well. The western media even used footage of Ukraine soldiers committing crimes of war, branding them as Russian soldiers, in the general indifference. You have to understand, that as of now the western media have entered the war propaganda mode. If you want to inform you…

Wouldn't the best perspectives be those unaffiliated with either side in the conflict?

Ok sure, you may wish to discount "western" media, but Russia is directly involved in the conflict, and has a vested interest in the outcome. They are ground zero for propaganda.

Shouldn't you go for something like Hindustati Times or Al Jazeera for more "neutral" stance?

Re: Ask HN: How do you deal with lies on the internet?

#94

Post by px43 »

A key thing missing from today's web is a sense of *reputation*. Websites run by centuries old establishments of fine journalism can look exactly the same as blog spam or straight up fake news websites run by some random internet weirdo.

My solution for this at the moment is the Media Bias Fact Check extension. https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/appsextensions/

MBFC has a good breakdown of where any given news source gets their funding, as well as previous articles posted from a particular news source and if they are considered to be reasonably fair, slanted, or provably incorrect.

Really though, this level of exposure to domain reputation needs to be built directly into the address bar of every major browser. People should see flashing red red lights when visiting any domain with a bad reputation. This would also go a long way towards tackling many forms of phishing as well.

Obviously giving this power to some central authority would be bad. I've been donating regularly to MBFC, but I'm not sure how well that scales. What we eventually need is a crowd-sourced domain reputation database. There's a few ways to do this, and really we need the browser support first, and the built in agility to let users point to alternative trust databases. This sort of thing is badly needed, soon.

Re: Ask HN: How do you deal with lies on the internet?

#95

Post by [deleted] »

raphlinus wrote: post #38
pumpkinprog wrote: post #17

Read sources with different points of view and take the average. Pretty easy with the Russia-Ukraine situation, just take 2 western or Ukrainian news sources, 2 Russian and 2 relatively unrelated (China, Africa, etc.) Same with elections (2 Dems, 2 Reps, 2-3 unrelated international). Much more difficult with COVID since nearly everybody has the same point of view, and the remaining ones are marginal. IMO, in such a s…

If one side is serving chocolate cake, and the other shit, then what you end up with is a half-shit, half-chocolate confection. Some people apparently like that, but I personally don't. Another way of saying this is historian John M. Barry's quote, "when you mix politics and science, you get politics," also famously cited by Peter Daszak.

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: How do you deal with lies on the internet?

#96

Post by pastacacioepepe »

kortex wrote: post #93
pastacacioepepe wrote: post #56

Good question. Most of the news you read about the conflict are fake at the moment. Videogames footage has been used, old footage from years ago as well. The western media even used footage of Ukraine soldiers committing crimes of war, branding them as Russian soldiers, in the general indifference. You have to understand, that as of now the western media have entered the war propaganda mode. If you want to inform you…

Wouldn't the best perspectives be those unaffiliated with either side in the conflict? Ok sure, you may wish to discount "western" media, but Russia is directly involved in the conflict, and has a vested interest in the outcome. They are ground zero for propaganda. Shouldn't you go for something like Hindustati Times or Al Jazeera for more "neutral" stance?

Nobody has a neutral stance at the moment. That's why I watch both sides. The NATO propaganda is shoved down my throat while I browse the web, watch tv, talk with a neighbour. For the Russian propaganda I go to the RT streams.

Re: Ask HN: How do you deal with lies on the internet?

#99

Post by mvc »

iso1631 wrote: post #78
mvc wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No way is SkyNews as partisan as Fox. You'd never see someone like Sam Coates for example on Fox. And he's not the only one.

Austrailian Sky News != UK Sky News Sky, BBC (especially BBC World) and ITN (especially Channel 4) are all pretty good in the UK

Ah fair point. I assumed UK. Sorry jpgvm

Re: Ask HN: How do you deal with lies on the internet?

#100

Post by tragictrash »

willismichael wrote: post #59
bsd44 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, this is probably the best approach. Stop, breathe, apply critical thinking and give it some time to process the information and see how it fits into the big picture. You need to detach yourself emotionally from the issue you're trying to observe and evaluate (aka don't choose sides, it's not a football match). And as ever; if in doubt, go against the majority. That's your safest bet. The average person is mo…

> The average person is more or less an idiot No insult taken. Upon observing this same phenomenon, I am forced to conclude that I must also be more or less an idiot.

The first step is admitting you have a problem.

I am also an idiot.

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