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Ask HN: How Many of You Are Like Me?

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Re: Ask HN: How Many of You Are Like Me?

#91

Post by mcantor »

frevd wrote: post #21
notyourwork wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

English is nothing more than another vehicle humans use to communicate. For you to claim using proper grammar and well formed sentences of the english language is just a cop out to the point the OP was trying to make. Let me paraphrase in a grammar that is perhaps closer to on par with the level you seek: "I have spent a long time on hacker news. In fact I used to communicate with others on a regular basis but that c…

you're right, I appreciate the honest words. i'm just having difficulties in being serious - this is a personal trait and part of my very way to learn since it enables me to stay distant and see more of the bigger picture, thus not easily changed. I'll try to be more serious however. also, since my english is rather poor, I apologize for my bad grammar and unstructured sentences.

It might be a good idea to mention that English is not your first language, at the beginning of your longer posts.

For shorter posts, it is probably worth your time to spend an extra 1 or 2 minutes making sure the capitalization and grammar are correct. But, for longer posts, when you are expressing more complicated ideas, spending too much time reviewing your writing style would damage your train of thought. It would probably suffice to say, "Sorry if my English isn't so great."

There's a HUGE difference between a native English speaker writing a thoughtless post with bad style, and a non-native English speaker writing a thoughtful post with bad style.

I think a lot of HN people are sensitive to writing style because it's a useful way to decide whether or not you should bother reading something. If a comment is very poorly written, it is more likely (but not definite) that the content is also poorly imagined.

The problem is when there are "false negatives" such as yourself--people who are carefully thinking through their ideas, but are not as well-versed in writing style. Help the community cut you some slack; advertise the fact that English is not your first language when you do not have the time or skill to make your posts perfect. :-)

Re: Ask HN: How Many of You Are Like Me?

#92

Post by PaulHoule »

zackattack wrote: post #78

Are you serious ? "I've learned more from the community than I did during my $100,000 MBA from the University of Chicago." You weren't out meeting people and making awesome connections? You didn't build relationships with the brilliant professors? I am shocked by the content of your post. What have you learned on Hacker News? And then what did you learn at Booth? I would pay to read that write-up.

Not everybody gets the most out of being at an Elite university.

My family comes from an ethnically Catholic background, you know, Italian, Polish, French-Canadian, many of the people who came to the U.S. fleeing the aftermath of WWII, members of the surplus humanity whose livelihood was destroyed by the mechanization of agriculture in the early half of the twentieth century.

In the 1960's and 1970's, in a time when it became unfashionable to attack blacks and indigenous persons, academics such as Mark Granovetter and Edward C. Banfield were writing treatises about the inferiority of traditionally Catholic ethnic groups. And I'll just say that in graduate school, people from these backgrounds find there is no organization for their "national advancement" or "anti-defamation" and they'll be left to their own devices to understand why certain doors just aren't quite open to them.

[Disclaimer: the author of this post has no relationship to the Catholic Church other than having many family and friends who are members, and in fact, is a pagan]

Re: Ask HN: How Many of You Are Like Me?

#93

Post by mcantor »

jarek wrote: post #77
Mz wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it is not a strict coders forum. Even simply being female makes me very much a minority here and I have seen a number of posts from women who cite that as an obstacle to effective participation. I like getting a diversity of views and feedback/information. It is one of the reasons I work hard on coming across politely and respectfully when speaking with people who have strongly different views from mine: It…

"As for speaking English as a second language: Stating up front "please forgive my English" seems to work pretty well to smooth things over for some members here." This isn't my discussion and so I apologize for potentially butting in, but being an ESL speaker myself it bothers me a bit to see ESL writers apologize for their English. I'm not sure if this is unique to those who are ESL themselves, but I find distingui…

... being an ESL speaker myself...

I appreciate the "please forgive my English" notes, actually. I am a native English speaker, and I have no ability whatsoever to distinguish between ESL writers and sloppy natives. I certainly was not aware that frevd was not a native speaker until he mentioned it.

Re: Ask HN: How Many of You Are Like Me?

#94

Post by mcantor »

Mz wrote: post #90
gnaritas wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What you've done is no different to this scenario - your at school, your one of the popular guys But this is exactly the kind of thing he's referring to, sloppy writing and sloppy grammar generally mean sloppy thinking. If you're going to take the time to write something, you must want it to be read; have respect for your reader and use proper capitalization, punctuation, and correct contractions. There are a lot o…

I do understand why this stuff matters and trips people up (and I sometimes ask for clarification when I can't understand what someone meant because of a typo), but this kind of mistake is quite common with native speakers who write what they "hear" in their head. In one of my college French classes, a native speaker of French was taking the class so he could get a teaching credential (IIRC). He routinely made this t…

... I generally think manners require one to give the benefit of the doubt and only nail someone to the wall when you are sure they are not only being an arse but intentionally so.

I prefer to err on the side of safety, and never do any crucifying.

In the best case scenario, you never respond viciously to someone who was just expressing themselves honestly.

In the worst case scenario, you treat the incendiary jerks with unexpected kindness, which usually confuses and annoys them in turn. It's win/win, you see!

Re: Ask HN: How Many of You Are Like Me?

#95

Post by mcantor »

JonnieCache wrote: post #40
EwanG wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the off chance you're serious (and I know folks sometimes have a hard time differentiating between very subtle sarcasm and true newbiehood): You are being directed to go to Google (or other search engine of choice) and enter the phrase "Cone of Learning". You should get a result similar to the following: http://www.google.com/search?q=cone+of+learning&ie=utf-8...

To be fair it is possible to parse google as a noun in that sentence. It reads a bit like an item in an RPG. Google Cone of Haste +3

Ironically, this is somewhat related to the "grammar & writing style" debate raging in another thread on this very post. If the root poster had written:

    Google "Cone of Learning"
It would not have been so ambiguous!

Re: Ask HN: How Many of You Are Like Me?

#96

Post by JesseAldridge »

kraggp wrote: post #87
JesseAldridge wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_(economics) Attention is a scarce resource. Acting like a fool is correlated with actually being a fool. People are less likely to take a comment seriously when a cursory examination suggests that it's a waste of space. Maybe that's not the way it should be, but that's the way it is.

Are you serious? Have you worked in a board room at a Fortune 500 company? Most CEOs and executives don't have time to compose grammatically-error-free responses. Do you know how Steve Jobs writes? Now multiply that across 500 organizations of the biggest corporations in America and the shoddy writing will certainly shock you if you think "people are less likely to take a comment seriously" because their sentences ar…

Being CEO of a Fortune 500 is such a strong signal of competence that you don't need any others.

Ad hominem is useful in the real world because one's credibility impacts the probability that what they say is accurate.

Re: Ask HN: How Many of You Are Like Me?

#97

Post by Mz »

mcantor wrote: post #94
Mz wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do understand why this stuff matters and trips people up (and I sometimes ask for clarification when I can't understand what someone meant because of a typo), but this kind of mistake is quite common with native speakers who write what they "hear" in their head. In one of my college French classes, a native speaker of French was taking the class so he could get a teaching credential (IIRC). He routinely made this t…

... I generally think manners require one to give the benefit of the doubt and only nail someone to the wall when you are sure they are not only being an arse but intentionally so. I prefer to err on the side of safety, and never do any crucifying. In the best case scenario, you never respond viciously to someone who was just expressing themselves honestly. In the worst case scenario, you treat the incendiary jerks w…

Touche. And may you be an excellent influence on the forum. Have an upvote.

Re: Ask HN: How Many of You Are Like Me?

#98

Post by muhfuhkuh »

kraggp wrote: post #87
JesseAldridge wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_(economics) Attention is a scarce resource. Acting like a fool is correlated with actually being a fool. People are less likely to take a comment seriously when a cursory examination suggests that it's a waste of space. Maybe that's not the way it should be, but that's the way it is.

Are you serious? Have you worked in a board room at a Fortune 500 company? Most CEOs and executives don't have time to compose grammatically-error-free responses. Do you know how Steve Jobs writes? Now multiply that across 500 organizations of the biggest corporations in America and the shoddy writing will certainly shock you if you think "people are less likely to take a comment seriously" because their sentences ar…

"Most CEOs and executives don't have time to compose grammatically-error-free responses."

I've been at 3 F500 companies in my 20 years of work, and where those F500 have even changed CEOs once or twice. The only time a CEO has ever sent anything grammatically or syntactically incorrect is when he's paging IT from his cellphone to fix something on the Executive floor. Everything else is carefully crafted and presented, especially internal memoranda. Being a CEO is more than just promoting synergy like a boss; communication (including and especially writing) is almost everything else.

Re: Ask HN: How Many of You Are Like Me?

#100

Post by mryall »

kraggp wrote: post #79
SamReidHughes wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just because he starts his posts with a lol, and a smiley mean NOTHING. Actually it means a lot. When you read, your neurons get tingled. How this happens is affected by writing style. Not everybody has the time or energy to be a hyperrationalist information absorber that processes data into the same thing irrespective of the order and manner it arrives. edit: I think you've misinterpreted my post if you think I sa…

The pseudo-intellectualism that permeates this board is a little appalling. I can certainly assure you that C-level executives across Silicon Valley backed by the strongest VCs and beyond write in a much less formal manner than most people on HN. Nothing wrong with that.

Writing in clear understandable language and suggesting others do the same isn't "pseudo-intellectualism". It's just common sense. If you want your thoughts to be understood and respected, choose appropriate language to express them.

What people use in frequent communication with their friends or colleagues is likely to be different to that used on a public message board which brings together people from many different backgrounds for discussion of "deeply interesting" topics.

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