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Ask HN: Founders, what is the worst experience you had with developers?

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Re: Ask HN: Founders, what is the worst experience you had with developers?

#91
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>2. Hacking the servers after being fired and deleting the data May I ask what happened with this? For many companies step one would be to contact the feds, and then the former employee would awaken to the sound of their door being kicked in pursuant to a search warrant for all of their personal devices.

Why is this a federal crime?

>Why is this a federal crime?

Anything related to damaging computer systems via way of unauthorized (or even sometimes even authorized) access can easily become a federal crime.

The CFAA[0] comes to mind, see 18 U.S.C. § 1030(a)(5)(A).

Moreover, the feds are typically better equipped than local jurisdictions to handle computer-related crimes.

[0] https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1030

Note: IANAL

Re: Ask HN: Founders, what is the worst experience you had with developers?

#92

I have interacted with off-shore development teams from a specific country 3 times now. I'll say the country later. Every time the development team could not grasp what was required. You literally had to exchange 20 emails with them for each specific point. Of course, this just increased the length of time for scope and in all cases furthered the time of the project. Each stage of the application was over engineered…

Not sure what your point is here. Your company chose the lowest priced company and was surprised when the quality of the work wasn't great. Because this isn't just unique to just India. This happens everywhere. To counteract this story. I worked at Apple where they used offshore engineers from India and the quality of the work was excellent. You get what you pay for.

> You get what you pay for.

It is more than that - it takes an incredible amount of time and effort to setup a good offshore team.

It took my current company over a decade to get to a point where we can consistently get ~10% lower project costs.

That’s a decade of failed and delayed projects! And we weren’t trying to go with the cheapest devs.

When your dev spend is a few hundred million or more a year this makes sense.

However, many many smaller companies have been burned. A couple of failed projects can sink these smaller companies.

Re: Ask HN: Founders, what is the worst experience you had with developers?

#93

I have interacted with off-shore development teams from a specific country 3 times now. I'll say the country later. Every time the development team could not grasp what was required. You literally had to exchange 20 emails with them for each specific point. Of course, this just increased the length of time for scope and in all cases furthered the time of the project. Each stage of the application was over engineered…

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Founders, what is the worst experience you had with developers?

#94
post #26

I have interacted with off-shore development teams from a specific country 3 times now. I'll say the country later. Every time the development team could not grasp what was required. You literally had to exchange 20 emails with them for each specific point. Of course, this just increased the length of time for scope and in all cases furthered the time of the project. Each stage of the application was over engineered…

You still haven't mentioned the country.

India.

Re: Ask HN: Founders, what is the worst experience you had with developers?

#95

I have interacted with off-shore development teams from a specific country 3 times now. I'll say the country later. Every time the development team could not grasp what was required. You literally had to exchange 20 emails with them for each specific point. Of course, this just increased the length of time for scope and in all cases furthered the time of the project. Each stage of the application was over engineered…

I can empathise with the experience, and have seen many others go through the same.

Part of it is because many colleges(and by extension, firms) in India are focused on knowledge of frameworks and languages as a key indicator of skill and quality. Many, but not all. Which essentially means that, developers are hired cos they know X framework or Y language. When clients ask for devs, how do they choose? Based on skills. Now, when quality is measured not by simplicity but complexity, everything will be over engineered.

Re: Ask HN: Founders, what is the worst experience you had with developers?

#96

I find a lot of developers seriously lack a professional mentality (I think I'm guilty of this in my youth though I made up for it in dedication and sheer hard work.) Moving towards the business side I hired a lot of interns from commerce/marketing and they made my devs seem like little babies, it was shocking how capable, committed, team-oriented they were. It changed my view of things. It's a matter of culture and…

I would say that many developers often sweat about minute technical details but completely ignore business goals. I'm involved in the local dev community and after meetups we often go for drinks. You almost never hear people talking about their company's successes, growth, strategy etc. It's all about the new hot tech they've recently had a chance to use. This mentality is reflected in the way they carry themselves a…

> completely ignore business goals

Well, if they are not implicated in the business side of things, I don't see how they could be interested in. For example in my case, we're just getting feature requests for the next version, with no indication of business goals.

Re: Ask HN: Founders, what is the worst experience you had with developers?

#97
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are some specific (behavioral) examples of "lacking professional mentality"?

+ A general disregard for any activity that isn't specifically development. Like 'meetings'. Of course meetings can be overdone, but they can have a lot of value even if the topic being discussed at any moment isn't hyper-relevant to the developer himself. There's a commenter below who said he has a dev who'll bring in competitive offers if he's asked to go to more than two meetings a week for example. This dev has h…

I think that you make a lot of very good points. I have also seen self-entitled, arrogant developers stomping around like they own the place, not respecting the difficulties in different roles (management) or other disciplines. I've seen endless bike-shedding, and endless toy-chasing (at the direct expense of the business).

But I also think that there are some significant problems in what you've said.

You describe what looks like a siloed structure, where sales/marketing people are deciding on what to build, and then throwing it over the fence to the developers to just "get on with". Where are the fast iterations, looping frequently back to the customer, and involving the whole team in the process? Does a developer never have a good idea with regards to features? I think that if you want robots who do what exactly they're told, then you're going to end up with... a development staff of robots.

Meetings. Endless meetings. Agile, if done on a weekly cycle, gives you no fewer than seven mandatory meetings. I don't disagree that it's important to communicate, but the prevailing culture across the industry is absolutely towards superfluous meetings which involve too many people. And I think that's a big problem. Yes, developers need to understand that perhaps not all of a meeting will be relevant to them, but if they're not relevant to the meeting, then really they shouldn't be in it.

"Failing to internalize that ultimately, they work for a business." - I think that the above point on solied structures is relevant here, but I think that there is more also. It depends on the type of business, and I think that you're referring to B2B. But I have personally seen in the B2C case, with millions of users, the sales and marketing side - sometimes from different divisions - preference their own career objectives over the user's experience. "We sold this for a million dollars" "But there's spyware on the partner side sometimes" "Tough. Build the integration". So while I think that you're right when it comes to building a special-case for a particular customer who genuinely needs that special case, I think that there are also other cases here where it's not that simple.

A more minor point but when you say "as though they don't know the language of business", I think you're right, they don't know the language of business!

I find your sports team / jocks vs nerds analogy interesting, perhaps mostly to inform on your general perspective. Personally I would prefer a team of smart developers who care deeply about the product that they build, working hand-in-hand with the product team, designers, sales, and customer in short iterations where rather than deciding precisely what will be built up-front, the solution is instead found organically with valuable contributions from everyone.

But you're dead right on the 'new toys'. That practice is unforgivable.

Re: Ask HN: Founders, what is the worst experience you had with developers?

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One can't. That would require management "speccing it out" (ie. knowing what they're asking for). The only fix for that problem is replace management, which would have to be done ... by management.

You're just suggesting management should follow a waterfall PM structure. We're supposed to get incomplete specs, it's the only way everyone can end up happy. It doesn't help pointing fingers at an ephemeral 'management' for not knowing exactly how an app should work up front.

Incomplete in terms of technical architecture perhaps, but what ends up happening is that it's very incomplete in terms of function as well.

In fact, it's usually overspecced in terms of technical architecture and woefully underspecced in terms of function.

Re: Ask HN: Founders, what is the worst experience you had with developers?

#100
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be telling someone who lives in London how British slang is used because you read about it a few minutes before on Wikipedia.

Fellow Brit here. Born, bred and then f'd off elsewhere. I'd argue P45 is slang for being fired. Its slang because P45 has nothing directly to do with being fired. It is a tax document related to changing employment.

I agree (born and live in London). I've never heard P45 used as slang, maybe you could use "given a P45" to suggest someone was fired though.
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