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Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

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Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#891

Post by jrvarela56 »

TheAnswerMan wrote: post #146
jrvarela56 wrote: post #95

Remote work will take care of this. Developers will work for companies in USA that can pay more. Companies want developers and will pay market rates. We will converge towards a global rate for devs.

> Remote work will take care of this. If by "take care of" you mean put downward pressure on European wages, then sure. Unrestricted remote competition would benefit 3rd world developers and the 1st world employers. But not the 1st world employee.

My assumption was that European devs are underpaid wrt USA and that their wages will go up as shortage of devs in USA forces them to pay up for European devs.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#892

Post by jrvarela56 »

SiempreViernes wrote: post #142
jrvarela56 wrote: post #95

Remote work will take care of this. Developers will work for companies in USA that can pay more. Companies want developers and will pay market rates. We will converge towards a global rate for devs.

Маybe, but currently the world is going towards decoupling, not internationalisation.

I don't think this applies to remote positions. Local labor market restrictions + taxes create ample room for a win-win between remote employee and employer. So there's a strong incentive to hire from abroad.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#893

Post by mrmanner »

mamon wrote: post #775
nathias wrote: post #538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is a comparable amount of value created between you and someone in USA, its just that in Europe managers capture more % of the profit. Its not an issue of scarcity (that makes sens only for the whole playing ground) but of distribution after the scarcity is already priced in.

"Value created by you" is not necessarily dependent on your skills alone. You might be the best Java programmer in the world, but if you get hired to write some boring CRM system for internal use in a bank, then the value you created is limited by how much money said bank wants to burn on internal development efforts. On the other hand, if you get hired by FAANG and work on the "next big thing", like, say, new operat…

> You might be the best Java programmer in the world

This is also true in the opposite sense. A mediocre programmer at a bank or a high-profit company could still create a lot of value because of the surroundings or simply the industry. And they're probably compensated for that, at least in part.

Even more interesting – the cafeteria workers, cleaning staff, etc at those companies also produce more value than their colleagues in less fortunate companies/industries. But they're probably not compensated for it, because markets.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#894

Post by [deleted] »

irrational wrote: post #875
oblio wrote: post #561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your solution doesn't scale. How many devs can do this? 1%? 5%? 20%? What about the rest?

At my company it is 100%. And we are not a FAANG company. I have a sister in law that works as a developer in another non-FAANG company that makes about $100k more than me. I don’t think it is as rare as you think for developers to have good benefits and high salaries.

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#895

Post by ChuckMcM »

rednum wrote: post #683
ChuckMcM wrote: post #219

Warning, this post is a bit cynical. Okay, it is a LOT cynical. Sorry. I suppose this is obvious but the traditional way of increasing prices is to lower the supply. If you want SWE's to get more money, first pass a rule that a SWE has to have some EU certification, and make the certification something reasonably expensive and not easy to get, say a certificate than can only be granted by accredited authorities after…

> I suppose this is obvious but the traditional way of increasing prices is to lower the supply. I've been thinking about this recently and it feels like the current culture in software engineering is to increase the supply. I see people who code and offer free coding lessons to their friends. Pre-covid there has been multiple meetups where I live in themed like "programming for no programmers" or "build your first a…

Pretty much, you've got the Bar that must be passed to practice law, and the Medical boards, that must be passed to practice medicine. Those barriers are established, nominally, to ensure a level of ability/quality across providers of medical or legal services. And yet they are not as successful at that mission than one would think given that it is allegedly their "primary" mission.

There is the professional engineer certification, and for a while people pushed the professional data processor, but it wasn't followed with statutory requirements (and penalties) for hiring uncertified individuals.

If anyone reading this is confused, I think it would be FABULOUS to have really strong self-policing certification authorities that would identify and kick out bad actors like various contractor licensing boards do. As long as those same agencies were not designed to structurally discriminate. CA, VT, WA, and VA allow you to take the bar exam without a law degree. If you learn the law on your own, you can take the exam and be licensed to practice law in any of those states. That is non-discriminatory. I would be in favor of something similar for "licensed" software engineers. Self study, trade school, university, any of them should be able to provide a path to becoming a SWE. What we're missing at the moment is some third party to identify those who have "arrived" vs those who are still on the path.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#896

Post by xxpor »

iso1631 wrote: post #633
ojbyrne wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For corporations, it is generally different. "In a Chapter 11 bankruptcy, the debtor corporation is typically recapitalized so that it emerges from bankruptcy with more equity and less debt, a process through which some of the debtor corporation's debts may be discharged." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapter_11,_Title_11,_United_S...

So in a chapter 11 bankrupcy a corporation is let off its obligations, creditors suffer, but the corporation emerges wealthier than ever? Why can't an average person do that?

They can. This is the distinction between unsecured and secured debt (outside of your primary residence, which has special protections). For most unsecured debt, an individual can get it wiped out in bankruptcy court. The main exception to this is student debt. Good luck ever getting any type of loan for the next decade or so though. This is what's called Chapter 7 in the US. There's a means test here ostensibly to prevent abuse.

There's also Chapter 13, which is more of an adjustment plan. You keep your assets, but you agree to pay some portion of your debts over 3 to 5 years. If you don't make your payments, the judge can dismiss the plan and creditors can pursue you under state law for the debt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bankruptcy#Chapter_7

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#897

Post by pashamur »

willeh wrote: post #656
pashamur wrote: post #235

Other reasons for the U.S. salaries not mentioned yet: 0) Banning of non-competes in Silicon Valley (!!) and ease of incorporation / listing on markets back in the 90's and before 1) Foreign investment in the U.S. (Saudi, Chinese, Russian money due to favorable treatment, anonymity (!)) and presence of U.S. dollar worldwide as a reserve currency - lots of that money ended up in Silicon Valley (Softbank etc). This esp…

3) Is largely not true, the EU is largely heterogeneous when it comes to personal bankruptcy laws. The fact that unsecured consumer loans are as cheap as secured consumer loans (e.g. car loans), in many EU countries, shows that it is very to get rid of debt permanently. In the country I know best a personal bankruptcy means that you have to keep paying your debts for a period of 5 years before they are forgiven. Duri…

I think we're in agreement then that the U.S. is more lenient with its bankruptcy laws than Europe (on the whole, although as you pointed out it varies by country)

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#898

Post by Hamuko »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #530
sparkling wrote: post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In pretty much all of the EU, even in expensive cities like Stockholm or Dublin, if you earn a salary of €100,000, you can live a pretty decent life. Define "decent". In the top tier cities in western EU countries, buying even a modest apartment that will house a small family will be a challenge on €100k (pre-tax!). It is certainly doable, but you will not be able to afford any other luxuries.

Europe doesn't value property ownership like the UK/USA/AU does - it's perfectly normal to rent for your entire life, and owning your own home is not seen as a requirement for a good life or even a wealthy one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_owne...

This list would suggest that there are many countries in Europe with a higher home ownership rate than the US, the UK or Australia. Surely that says something about valuing it.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#899

Post by Hamuko »

ff232fffffrt wrote: post #313

Western Europe is the worst place to be a software engineer. Your salaries will only be like 20% above average salary in the country. However, unlike other jobs, you spend tons of time to learn new technologies, visit a university and all that for absolutely nothing. Decline of Europe is inevitable. In Germany, a tiler with almost no education will make more money than a software engineer.

>However, unlike other jobs, you spend tons of time to learn new technologies, visit a university and all that for absolutely nothing.

I mean, I have a ton of perks, my job isn't that stressful and I don't even have to leave my home.

I feel like as a software engineer, I'm pretty well off in general.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#900

Post by avisser »

Bakary wrote: post #260
username90 wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A larger fraction of Americans have a tertiary degree than almost all European countries. Not if you only count STEM degrees, then USA is far behind. https://www.businessinsider.com/most-technological-countries... I'm not sure why American's don't study STEM, you'd think they wanted to study something that pays off. But maybe it is the other way around, with government funded education they only offer STEM degrees…

Most people are made miserable by studying STEM. And if it makes you miserable, you are unlikely to get good enough at it to get the purported payoff.

But the inverse is not true.

My wife just got her psychology PhD. Thankfully it was in clinical psych (which from an observer's point of view is the "best" of the psych programs) and she abandoned academia so she has a decent, well-paying job.

America mints way more liberal arts PhDs than we have jobs for. Being in debt w/o a job at 30 is not a great position to be in.

Also, getting the degree (aka being a low-payed servant for her PI) wasn't far from misery. Just one datapoint, but it was not unique among her cohort.

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