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Ask HN: How can we solve the loneliness epidemic?

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Re: Ask HN: How can we solve the loneliness epidemic?

#861
post #438

You have to be the one who creates things to do. Really, that’s it. You want to play D&D together, you host and DM. You want to just hang out, you reach out and propose what you’re doing. You want more purposeful and meaningful time, join a volunteer group you vibe with. Even if it’s meeting for coffee. You have to be the one who reaches out. You have to do it on a regular cadence. If, like me, you don’t have little…

> nerds like us often are rejection-sensitive

This "hypersensitivity" and even paralytic fear must be understood as a narcissistic trait (people fail to recognize this, in part, because they have a limited view of what is narcissistic, as something necessarily bombastic, and of course, narcissism tends toward a blindness of one's own narcissism). By recognizing this to be the case, the subtle temptation toward self-pity, or normalization or even valorization of such qualities, can be prevented. Narcissistic traits are antisocial, and so it stands to reason that narcissistic traits impede one's ability to form healthy relationships.

> You are struggling against many aspects of the way we in the developed world/nerd world live.

The liberal consumerist hyperindividualism of our age is an anthropological position that conceives of human beings as atomized units that merely enter into transactional relations with other human beings. "Society" is merely something contractual and utilitarian, and in practice has the flavor of mutual exploitation. In effect, society is reduced to something like a marketplace. This is, of course, totally bogus and destructive. We are intrinsically social animals. Society is a common good, a superordinate good, toward which we have certain general, non-consensual moral obligations and something we need to flourish as human beings.

Because of the bad anthropology the contemporary world is rooted in, we often feel its practices and aims to be meaningless and hollow. We also find ourselves oscillating between the twin errors of collectivism and hyperindividualism. These two extremes are forced onto us by the paradigm of this false anthropology. One looming danger today is that, as the liberal order collapses, we do not know what will replace it. The loudest contenders are undesirable.

> more time-consuming relationship with our families than our parents ever did

That depends. On the one hand, family life was much more robust and lively in many ways than it is today. Parents weren't as careerist then in general. Families were larger, so the abundance of siblings meant you didn't have a lonely childhood at home, and a large pool of potential friends outside of it. Older siblings would assist with younger siblings, and children would participate in domestic duties, so in that sense, parents would not need to be as involved in all aspects of the daily life of the children and the functioning of the household. And in the past, families tended to concentrate more in the local area, so grandparents were typically near children and grandchildren and so on. In other words, a robust family life enables a robust society in general. Social life becomes "thicker" and mutually reinforcing.

The time-consuming element you have in mind is therefore related. All of the responsibility for taking care of aging parents falls on the few children they have or who live nearby. Without siblings or friends, parents step in socially more than they would with their children (or else consign them to the cesspool of social media and internet garbage). There are also cultural factors: parents can become overinvolved or inappropriately involved in some respects, like the proverbial helicopter parent, which itself can be spurred by the collapse of society around them, if not careerist ambitions for one's children.

Which brings us to your main point...

> You have to be the one who creates things to do.

Today, communities often need to be more intentional. If there isn't a community around you'd like to join, you have to be the one who initiates it. It's not guaranteed to function or last, but what's the alternative?

This doesn't "solve" the so-called loneliness epidemic, of course. The proposal here is more modest, namely, if you want people in your life, you have to look for them. Every community or social group needs a reason for its existence. The weakest form is rooted in utility, the second weakest in fun and pleasure. They are transient. The best and more robust kind are to be found in the common pursuit of virtue. In these and through these, we could begin to witness the birth of a healthy society.

Re: Ask HN: How can we solve the loneliness epidemic?

#862
post #438

You have to be the one who creates things to do. Really, that’s it. You want to play D&D together, you host and DM. You want to just hang out, you reach out and propose what you’re doing. You want more purposeful and meaningful time, join a volunteer group you vibe with. Even if it’s meeting for coffee. You have to be the one who reaches out. You have to do it on a regular cadence. If, like me, you don’t have little…

> You have to be the one who reaches out. But that's the whole issue. Who am I supposed to reach out to? The 2 people at work I occasionally talk to because they happen to sit in the same office as me?

I'm late for this comment, but finding a recreational team sport club in your area is what I could recommend. You have immediately something in common with everyone and it's a healthy exercise.

Re: Ask HN: How can we solve the loneliness epidemic?

#863
post #780

I‘m a cofounder of a German loneliness startup. My core insight is that loneliness often stems from a badly adjusted internal social threat function ( f(social event)=perceived threat ). This function runs subconsciously all day long. From talking to strangers to reaching out to a friend, the lonely mind is much more aware of negative outcomes, so your mind protects you by telling you things like „I don’t talk to str…

I'm extremely skeptical of financial solutions to this problem. One of the most fundamental reasons for my own personal loneliness is that, in many of the connections I've made, they simply do not feel sincere, genuine, authentic, and simply because the other person clearly has a different motivation for "caring" about me than actually caring about me. For example, the churchgoers I've met have always felt like they…

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: How can we solve the loneliness epidemic?

#864

I am in North Seattle, and I have a flock of nerds under me that would like to see real demonstrations of penetration testing via radio (Wifi and more). I have been proposing doing monthly meetups where we go up on a the rooftop of various buildings, bust out the tools, the antennas, and every other toy we have to scan and show how it's done. There are stories about others and me that the younger generation would lov…

Seattle is a great city for stuff like this. You probably already know about the Seattle Robotics Society, but if not, check them out.

https://seattlerobotics.org/

They have monthly meeting and are active in all kinds of events around the city.

Re: Ask HN: How can we solve the loneliness epidemic?

#865
post #438

You have to be the one who creates things to do. Really, that’s it. You want to play D&D together, you host and DM. You want to just hang out, you reach out and propose what you’re doing. You want more purposeful and meaningful time, join a volunteer group you vibe with. Even if it’s meeting for coffee. You have to be the one who reaches out. You have to do it on a regular cadence. If, like me, you don’t have little…

I was writing a reply, but then saw your comment. It's basically what I was going to say as well.

I moved to a new area. Searched for chess clubs. Couldn't find one.

So I created one. We now have ~10 people showing up to each meeting. From young kids, to older retired people. Facebook is a blessing for finding groups of people who are looking for things to do. It's really that simple. Just do things.

Re: Ask HN: How can we solve the loneliness epidemic?

#866
post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but space is the issue at present I believe. Is it? There are a number of third places around here that sit effectively vacant. The few who are passionate about seeing those spaces thrive will tell you that the problem is getting anyone to come, not finding space to host them.

I live in a major metro renowned for its green space, but we absolutely still have a space issue. * Outdoor spaces close at dusk for the most part, restricting sociability in the winter months when it’s darker, sooner, and longer. * Winters are cold, making outdoor spaces less usable during those months * Indoor spaces are exclusively fee-oriented. Coffee shops evict customers after an hour or so, movie theaters can…

> It’s a money issue

It is not. While said third places obviously do need resources to operate, that has already been figured out by those passionate to make a go of having the third place. Generous donations, grants, and fundraising go a long way.

I do buy that it is somewhat of a marketing problem. I expect a lot of people don't even know they exist. I was once talking to someone who literally lives just three doors down from one of those third places and it never occurred to him that he could even go in. But he also hasn't even now that he knows he can. That's quite telling.

I can also agree that there is a bit of a bootstrapping problem. If you show up and there is only a couple of other people there, you're not likely to return. If it was full of people, that'd be more compelling.

But these third places did thrive once upon a time. The bootstrapping problem was solved. The marketing problem was solved. It all fell apart because people found other things to do. The reality is that the population at large does not see a need for third places (of the type you speak) anymore. Houses nowadays are way bigger and more comfortable than they used to be so there isn't as much feeling of pressure to get out, there are more activities going on to occupy one's time[1], of course technology has become a significant distraction, etc.

[1] For example, my grandparents' generation would have never heard of putting their children in sports. My parents' generation would take their kids to a sport about once a week. Nowadays parents are carting their kids off to sporting events every single night of the week! That doesn't leave time to occupy a third place[2].

[2] The sporting event venue is technically a third place[3], granted, but if you've been to one you'll know they aren't particularly social for the parents. They mostly just sit there watching their children (or phone, quite often), not to mention that the considerable time spent in the car travelling from far off place to far off place to get to the competition is not social at all. I don't think that is what you have in mind with respect to the greater conversation.

[3] Open to the public, free of charge. If I am wrong above and this is what you did have in mind, then it serves as another example of the space being there with no need for you to open your wallet. All you have to do is show up. But will you? I already know the answer is "No." The actual parents don't even look like they want to be there most of the time.

Re: Ask HN: How can we solve the loneliness epidemic?

#867
post #438

You have to be the one who creates things to do. Really, that’s it. You want to play D&D together, you host and DM. You want to just hang out, you reach out and propose what you’re doing. You want more purposeful and meaningful time, join a volunteer group you vibe with. Even if it’s meeting for coffee. You have to be the one who reaches out. You have to do it on a regular cadence. If, like me, you don’t have little…

So what you're saying is you basically have to give. This is what I find real life is like. Unless I'm giving something, like a ride to some interesting place, people are not interested in me at all. They just want to get something from me, that's it.

I think of this all the time. What is the relationship between value and relationships? And what is the value of such a relationship?

It seems to me that every relationship is value oriented, even ones we consider absolutely perfect and pure.

Take for instance a mother's undying love for her newborn. She values that newborn for a few reasons. She sees herself in it. She sees pure innocence in it that needs to be protected and nourished. She sees all the potential good (i.e. value) this little child may one day bring to society. She sees her own personal fulfillment in the act of bringing this to fruition, which brings her joy, even amidst all the sacrifices she may have to make for it.

Is any of this selfish or bad? Does it in any way devalue her relationship to the child?

Extrapolate this to other relationships. A perfect friendship, where two people meet together regularly to find out about each other's recent activities, and encourage each other in life's difficulties, and foster one another's growth and good. They each care about the other, ask how the other is doing and what they're thinking and feeling, offer each other consolation, comfort, and help in times of distress or difficulty. Each gets this from the other, mutually beneficial. One may offer it exclusively at one time, the other reciprocates later, not out of obligation, but gratitude and personal desire.

Is this wrong? Is this selfish? Is this bad?

Re: Ask HN: How can we solve the loneliness epidemic?

#868

Not for everyone but if you can, get a dog. Dogs are icebreakers. People like to meet a cute dog. They won't know your name at first but you will be "Fido's Dad" or "Dave's Mom". Other dog owners will greet you and so long as your dogs don't hate each other you already have something in common. A dog gives you a reason to be wherever you want to be - take a walk around the neighborhood or to the park. You're not a ra…

> get a dog

I briefly considered it but I don't want to be the asshole. I would put any pet in exact position I am myself trying to avoid - stuck in home, alone for long periods of time.

Re: Ask HN: How can we solve the loneliness epidemic?

#869
post #852

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What sorts of places do you have in mind? Obviously dorms and cafeterias are great for college-aged adults, but for somebody in their late-20s and beyond? Locally, we have plenty of non-chain coffee shops, a good selection of small breweries/pubs, assorted gyms of all types and prices (CrossFit, Golds, etc), the local community center has assorted classes (dance, language, arts), and the community college has plenty…

You hit it on the money, third places won’t matter if it’s not accessible. We need to promote density, walkability and time. In America there is an idea that anyone who wants more that 4 hours to live outside of work is lazy or in some form selfish. We do need to model university a little bit imo. Give me stuff to do that I can get to with fair ease, give people the time and energy to do it and everyone will be a lot…

Yeah, I feel like suburban sprawl is as much to blame (or more so) than social media.

I live in the suburbs, but almost everything is within 2 miles... office, schools, and one cafe are walkable. Gym, another cafe, pub, and the town center (privately owned mixed-use complex) are 2-3 miles, so long walk, short bike, or 5 minutes in the car. I wish it was more walkable, but compared to most suburban areas, it's really good.

Contrasted my sister's house, on the other side of the county... nothing is within 3 miles or so. Basically a car ride to do anything, as there's no bike infrastructure for those things that are within 3 miles.

Re: Ask HN: How can we solve the loneliness epidemic?

#870

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personal solutions to systemic problems are not solutions. Yours is great advice for the few people able to take it to heart, find the motivation, and succeed, but you cannot solve societal problems at any kind of scale this way.

Just like you aren’t in traffic, you are traffic, you aren’t part of the society, you are society. Every idea like “let’s have icecream socials at..” started as one person’s pipe dream which they then acted on and executed. No one is coming to rescue us. There’s no secret hand guiding humankind. You definitely can’t solve loneliness for society but you can solve loneliness for your immediate circle by organising acti…

the parent's comment was what I have been thinking about though... The advice to not be the traffic is kind of just like saying "just try harder"...

I am thinking of a chain of causality like:

People do not plan things, or they flake on events because they're tired. Theyre tired because theyre working too many hours and are obese. They work/obese because because they consume too much. They consume too much because we're a spiritually empty society. (Just to put up an initial draft hypothesis).

I'm thinking if we can solve some of the nodes closer to the root we can have a higher impact than just burning ourselves out trying to deal with the leaf nodes.

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