Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#841

Post by nostoneunturned » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 10:16 AM UTC

lta wrote: post #490

Karawebnetwork wrote: post #41

I have never done what you describe, except perhaps in times of illness when it was understood that working less was a reasonable accommodation (in that particular case, I had leftover brain fog from general anesthesia). I've never heard of any colleagues doing it either. I would never snitch if it happened, but I would certainly consider that person untrustworthy or think that they have an undisclosed condition that…

I'm happy to finally read a comment that say this isn't a good or normal thing. I was starting to feel a bit of despair. I don't think I've done that much more that you seems to do but I've certainly seen a lot of people do it and it's always been pissing me off. I've always wondered how the world even works when I consider how much I've seen people do that at every level and at every kind of job. Dear original post…

I was kinda in similar shoes to OP but I am at the start of my career and it became obvious to me that I was not working at the same level as everyone else. I quit because I was severely burnt out and like you, I didn't want to pretend.

9-5 just isn't for me but it seems like you found a way around that with freelancing. I would love to do the same. Can you please shed some light on how you got started with it and how you built you client base?

I have always admired those that get to work in their own time as you do, it would be a dream to do the same.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#842

Post by dx034 » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 10:18 AM UTC

I've had the same experience. Not as extreme as you. The problem is, if your manager praises you for the output you generate with 1 hour of work daily, why invest more? It's not like they'd give you a bigger raise. Why not do fun stuff instead (e.g. side projects)?

I always valued having jobs that base promotions and evaluations on work output, not on hours worked. And if I can satisfy their expectations and outperform coworkers with just an hour a day, why should I do more? If everyone is doing it, it's not my job as a non-manager to fix it for the company.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#843

Post by IAmNotAFix » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 10:20 AM UTC

batmaniam wrote: post #22

The same could be asked about upper management. They earn 10x our pay, so their output is 10x more value than our work, and they work 10x harder, right? In our normal 8 hour work day, they must work 80 hours. Except a full day is 24 hours. Why is the onus always on the bottom workers to be honest? Why are we trying to feel guilty about our working hours vs how much we're paid? Because it's clear salary is not tied to…

Labor is not productivity. Labor is labor, and if badly aimed, might as well be completely useless. Upper management has the power and responsability to make decisions which can have colossal implications on the overall productivty of the company towards its goal of selling what it sells. The real issue though, is that even though labor can approximately be measured, the impact of decisions not so much; whatever decision is taken becomes the "new normal" and it's hard to know how much it was a productive or improductive one. I'm not really knowledgeable on how upper managers are evaluated.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#844

Post by dx034 » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 10:20 AM UTC

i_dont_know_ wrote: post #18

I think there's also something to be said for passive processing. Sometimes I'll know I need to write some code or some function and I'll just think about it in the back of my head while doing other things, sometimes for a whole day or two. Then I'll sit down and write it in like 20-30 minutes. Did I work 20-30 minutes, or have I been working for a day or two? I would say a day or two, and the 20-30 minutes was the t…

I think passive processing is one, intuition is the other. You can solve a problem by thinking about it for hours or by once looking at it and immediately knowing a good solution. It's about experience, intelligence and probably many other factors.

And that doesn't mean you'll perform well in technical interviews. They're often about specific algorithms most people would never implement themselves. Few are about the problem solving part of programming.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#845

Post by dx034 » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 10:21 AM UTC

oceanghost wrote: post #112

ckaygusu wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Poincar%C3%A9 > He never spent a long time on a problem since he believed that the subconscious would continue working on the problem while he consciously worked on another problem. This is definitely a thing. Intellectual labor just isn't physical labor.

Most of the best ideas I've had in my career were in the shower before work. The problem is making that a regular occurrence.

That's why I like going for a run or cycling at lunch time. It always helps me to process ideas. And doing it after work means I'll get that great idea in the evening when I don't want to work for the company anymore. I believe doing sports at lunch time helps the company at least as much as it helps me.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#846

Post by dx034 » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 10:22 AM UTC

hindsightbias wrote: post #729

oceanghost wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the best ideas I've had in my career were in the shower before work. The problem is making that a regular occurrence.

Steve Jobs had a theory that hot water on the blood vessels in the back of the neck increased blood flow to the brain.

Not saying that this is wrong, but he also had some dangerous theories on how to treat cancer. Just because he was good at many things doesn't mean we should see him as an expert in medicine or biology.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#847

Post by dsego » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 10:22 AM UTC

3a2d29 wrote: post #706

mattowen_uk wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Adding my voice to this one. I think a lot of work 'normal people' i.e. the PMs the non-technical management, the sales people etc. really don't get how we techies work. Because they have to do 'active' work all day long to keep on top, they think everyone is like that, where in reality we are really efficient in short bursts. I can ponder a deliverable for days and then just churn it out over a few hours, only takin…

As someone who switched majors and became programmer, I experienced a great example of this when I first started programming. Starting out, if I spent a whole day thinking over a problem or writing code that I ultimately had to scrap, I would tell people I got nothing done that day and it was a waste. Now if I do that, I see if as the necessary troubleshooting that all must go through to solve the problem.

Thinking over a problem is valid work. The feedback is usually to timebox it or get someone 1:1 to help out if it feels like wasting time. Maybe something wasn't well defined or planned, otherwise it's no updates, no blockers.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#848

Post by throwaway934876 » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 10:27 AM UTC

ipiz0618 wrote: post #786

ploxiln wrote: post #717

> Do people regularly run into coworkers like me during their career and simply ignore it because they find it too awkward to criticize them? Have I just been incredibly lucky and every boss I have had is too incompetent to notice? Do I have imposter syndrome and I am actually a 10x developer whose laziness makes them a 1x developer? Lazy developers don't really bother me, if you do a couple hours of high-quality wor…

Ok I'm going to be lazy from now on to avoid being fired...

I think an important lesson is, from all comments here, that you can work a lot less and get away with it but you need to excel in areas other than productivity.

What are those areas? Imho: Vision, providing direction, knowing when to be productive at the exact right time, identify well in advance what won't work, identify who is doing the same as you and working together or leveraging that work. Perhaps you can do very little until you finally identify that one core important thing and be praised for those couple of hours. It's a skill as any other.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#849

Post by dx034 » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 10:27 AM UTC

Karawebnetwork wrote: post #41

I have never done what you describe, except perhaps in times of illness when it was understood that working less was a reasonable accommodation (in that particular case, I had leftover brain fog from general anesthesia). I've never heard of any colleagues doing it either. I would never snitch if it happened, but I would certainly consider that person untrustworthy or think that they have an undisclosed condition that…

Not sure about the arguments regarding ethics. When I'm an employee, my contract is with the employer. They pay me, they evaluate me and their success is what determines my progress (in a good company). Sure, coworkers can suffer if I refuse to do my work, but I'm not there to make them happy, I'm there to make the company money.

So I don't think it's unethical to work less as long as your employer is still happy with what you do. Sure, lying is always suboptimal. But if your company likes your output and would just be confused by the hours needed to achieve, I don't see a big problem with it. You could even argue that working full time and producing 8x as much could bring coworkers in trouble who already can barely match OPs output. And they will exist, he wouldn't have gotten to the point where he is if he constantly was the worst performer.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#850

Post by dx034 » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 10:33 AM UTC

cattown wrote: post #132

I've been a software engineer and managed software engineers for 20 years and worked in all kinds of businesses. This is both normal and mostly acceptable, in my professional opinion. Doing just as much work as your employer requires and no more is way less of a problem than employees who actively steal, commit fraud, bring drama and distract other team members, or are introducing defects because they've faked their…

I like that point about mental health. Side projects can be great, speaking from experience. It's just a legal question, although in many countries (I can only speak for Europe), you won't get into much trouble if you stay out of the employer's business and strictly separate code for side project and your main job. It's more complicated in jurisdictions where the employer has more say about your life while being employed.

But if coding isn't your thing (not every developer likes coding), there are a lot of ways to utilize that time. Sports is a great way, spending time with family another (esp working remotely).