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Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

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Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#821

Post by tiborsaas »

Winterflow3r wrote: post #781
tiborsaas wrote: post #693

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in the EU, took more risks than most people I know, step out my comfort zone also multiple times. What most people miss is not the willingness, but the safety net. Results? Unimpressive, fails over fails. I know value the steady job I have and I keep tearing myself for not opting for this sooner. I don't know if I would be already burnt out if I haven't tried, but timing wasn't great, that's for sure.

Could you elaborate a bit more on what you tried when you stepped out of your comfort zone?

I pick a few key moments. Moving to the capital from my hometown ($30 in my pocket), abandoning college, start working as a self taught developer, quitting my job to work on a startup, moving abroad to chase another startup dream with $100 in my pocket, later doing the same, but in Germany. Trying to freelance. Then work in education for a programming bootcamp.

I can still see some uncomfortable situations ahead of me, but I'm not afraid to embrace them.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#822

Post by sidlls »

oblio wrote: post #555
sidlls wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you're all over the place arguing that pulling some in the bottom (SWEs) up will increase inequality. Unless you believe--quite wrongly--that SWEs aren't in the bottom....

I'd be shocked if software engineers aren't in the top 10% in the US.

The top 10% requires an income of about $160k/year. Quite a few software engineers in high and very-high cost of living areas make that--but the vast majority don't.

See: https://www.investopedia.com/personal-finance/how-much-incom...

Look at the wage growth for the 90th - 95th (top 10% to top 5%): it's in the bottom.

The distribution of salary for Senior SWE is found, e.g., at https://www.salary.com/research/salary/alternate/senior-soft.... The median is $115k, the 90% is $130k--still not the top 10%. Even when you bonuses the salary curve shifts right by less than 10% (e.g. median goes to about $116k, 90% outlier to $138k).

Some 4 million people in the US work as software engineers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_engineering_demograph...). FAANG accounts for, what, 1% - 2% of that? Maybe a bit more, but not much. The vast majority don't have high TC, most of them are paid a flat salary with a modest bonus and either have ESPPs or no equity at all.

Software engineers are laborers, in effectively the same social class as manual laborers. Our economic circumstances are better, but not that much better.

Your comment is a great example of how the huge inequality gaps and the infotainment media have distorted perceptions among workers.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#823

Post by agilob »

2rsf wrote: post #756
brianmcc wrote: post #698

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think Americans really comprehend the shock and horror that many of us feel about the state of their healthcare and the lack of vacation time, or other European norms such as maternity/paternity time or sick pay. 100% Would Not Swap. Compulsory nit-pick that not all UK nations charge tuition fees to their residents btw :-)

And more nit picking, some countries in Europe don't charge at all for higher education

I know that, that's why it says "Worst student debt you can get is in the UK"

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#824

Post by esond »

arcticbull wrote: post #85
alkonaut wrote: post #55

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

A lot of folks here are calling out the lower pay for SWEs in Europe and Canada as a failure - but also praise the low wealth inequality and low income inequality in Europe and Canada. You can't have low inequality by definition if you decide to start paying one group a ton of money. Well, this is a lot like the housing conversation in the US. "I want my house to go up in value, and be a great investment!" Also: "Why…

One of the issues that I know Canada faces (having been in this exact position) is a southward "brain drain". There is no small amount of top talent that graduate from Universities and ship out to SV, or of top talent that seek out remote gigs in the States.

The remote work proposition in particular is extremely enticing. Getting paid in a currency with 10-20% more buying power while still receiving the same government services was pretty swell.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#825

Post by quantumofalpha »

ergocoder wrote: post #464
quantumofalpha wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is absolutely no way to get 500k/year from being just an engineer in Europe. Proprietary trading shops in London at the top end or L6+ at Google Zurich can pay that in total comp. > I recall the React creator's base salary is 100k/year in London, and he works at Facebook. And what about stocks? There should be at least another 100k in them. Facebook is a publicly tradable company, its RSUs are as good as cash…

Sure, but the base salary for the React creator shouldn't be that low. That's like a new grad engineer at twitter if we simply compare base salary.

Why the focus on base salary alone? Total (liquid) compensation is what matters, as the high paying places tend to be either equity (FAANGs) or bonus (finance) heavy. And 200k+ GBP TC is very good pay for UK market, probably 99th percentile

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#826

Post by nathias »

mamon wrote: post #775
nathias wrote: post #538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is a comparable amount of value created between you and someone in USA, its just that in Europe managers capture more % of the profit. Its not an issue of scarcity (that makes sens only for the whole playing ground) but of distribution after the scarcity is already priced in.

"Value created by you" is not necessarily dependent on your skills alone. You might be the best Java programmer in the world, but if you get hired to write some boring CRM system for internal use in a bank, then the value you created is limited by how much money said bank wants to burn on internal development efforts. On the other hand, if you get hired by FAANG and work on the "next big thing", like, say, new operat…

I kind of agree, but it isn't just that europe doesn't innovate, there is a lack of VC infrastructure and it's kind of antithetical to the managerial culture.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#827

Post by killtimeatwork »

walshemj wrote: post #36
legerdemain wrote: post #9

There is a reason why Poles, Bulgarians, and Ukrainians are ubiquitous on remote teams in tech: they are cheap, they are hungry for a challenge, and they get gold medals on the IOI (at least the Poles and Bulgarians do). Dramatically increasing the pay of these people would be doing them a disservice by making them less employable.

So they are not as good your saying? From my experience eastern developers seem to need a lot of hand holding their don't seem to be many technical leads / CTO who can take broad instructions and produce a good piece of work

> From my experience eastern developers seem to need a lot of hand holding their don't seem to be many technical leads / CTO who can take broad instructions and produce a good piece of work

Hmm that's interesting and there may be something to it (I'm Polish). I've seen some very competent Polish tech leads, but no one higher than that really. It may be because the local value of a developer or tech lead salary is so high in Poland (esp. if you contract for rich Western/US companies) that people don't really have the motivation to move up the ladder - they're living like kings already and build wealth that will stay in their families for generations.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#828

Post by sidlls »

cjblomqvist wrote: post #426
sidlls wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paying laborers more does not lead to the kind of inequality we see. "You can't have low inequality by definition if you decide to start paying one group a ton of money." Very few of even FAANG-level salaries are high enough to put them in the same bucket as the people who wield power through their wealth. Paying the entire field of SWE laborers even 50% more salary is not going to appreciably change the inequality g…

Are you sure about that? Sure, not the top elite, but there's still a significant gap between upper middle class and lower in for example Sweden, which I believe is one of the more equal countries. FAANG level salaries would significantly widen that gap.

Yes, I am quite sure. The typical FAANG developer is not earning $200k base and $200k RSUs per year. It's more like $130k - $180k and maybe $80k to $150k RSU. You have to be pretty senior to reach top 5% income at FAANG in the US--it isn't as common as HN would have you believe.

And as I've noted in another comment, top 10% doesn't put you in the same socioeconomic class as the actual wealthy (https://www.investopedia.com/personal-finance/how-much-incom...).

There's a gap between FAANG and, say, a janitor's salary; that's just not debatable. The gap is much smaller than between Mr. FAANG and Mr. Top 5%, and for all intents and purposes Mr. FAANG is Mr. Janitor when compared to Mr. Top 1%. That some FAANG employees are in the top 1% doesn't negate this.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#829

Post by throwaway894345 »

beagle3 wrote: post #534
throwaway894345 wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was laid off recently due to the pandemic. Because I work in tech, it took me two weeks to find a new job and it ended up being a promotion and a 20% raise. I would make 40% less in Europe, even in a big city, and unless I lived in a small European town my cost of living would be quite a lot higher. Even factoring healthcare (contrary to what Europeans perceive, the healthcare system works very well for the upper m…

> contrary to what Europeans perceive, the healthcare system works very well for the upper middle class) ... until you get a really expensive chronic disease. And then it fails miserably. I know upper middle class parents whose kids got a disease which need ~$5000/month meds for a few years (and nontrivial infusion center costs on top). It worked ok for some, many had been informed that the insurance company decided…

I agree that American healthcare needs reform (and I want single prayer in particular), but I’ve never heard of an insurance company refusing to cover a necessary drug, at least not any health insurance plan that an upper middle class family might have.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#830

Post by throwaway894345 »

martin_a wrote: post #528
throwaway894345 wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was laid off recently due to the pandemic. Because I work in tech, it took me two weeks to find a new job and it ended up being a promotion and a 20% raise. I would make 40% less in Europe, even in a big city, and unless I lived in a small European town my cost of living would be quite a lot higher. Even factoring healthcare (contrary to what Europeans perceive, the healthcare system works very well for the upper m…

> the healthcare system works very well for the upper middle class See, that's the point. In Europe it works well for everyone, no matter how much you earn. It's a mentality-thing in the end (where the US position is hard to grasp for Europeans).

I agree. I was responding to the narrower context of the post: affordability for SWEs.
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