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Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

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821–830 of 859 posts

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#821

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You realize Voat exists right? And Gab? I wrote this about how Voat grew: https://battlepenguin.com/tech/voat-what-went-wrong/ Deplatforming was a big part of that. Deplatforming didn't stop Milo. His base dropped him because he started defending hebeaphiles & pedophile / men being attracted to teens/pre-teens/boys (there's actually something sadder here; with Milo not realizing he was himself abused ... there's an e…

This is akin to an argument that you shouldn't fire your nazi-sympathizing coworker when they discuss their support for an ethnonationalist state because they may join neo-nazi groups and "radicalize" as a result. Yes, they may. But while they do the workplace where most people interact is a livable place for the rest of us. We shouldn't make it easier to be heard if you have despicable views just because of the impl…

A workplace is pretty different from a public communications platform.

Surely you can tell the difference between talking about odious opinions on the internet, and making decisions as a representative of a company based on those odious opinions.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#822

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all bigotry is "I don't consider you human".

While that's true, I think it's worth pointing out that it is a mirror of your own statement that "the average left-leaning person today doesn't see bigots even as people any more." Neither statement is true. They are the same kind of hyperbolic/uncharitable extrapolation of a group's inner thoughts.

That's true, it is a mirror, which should be disturbing to anyone on the left who doesn't want the left to be a mirror of the right.

> They are the same kind of hyperbolic/uncharitable extrapolation of a group's inner thoughts.

Is it, though? What does saying, "I don't think you deserve to be heard" say about the person saying it?

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#823

I don't know if I know the solution, but I know one thing that isn't the solution: silencing everyone who disagrees with you. A lot of the people complaining about "toxicity" on the internet seem to be under the impression that if we "deplatform" the so-called toxic people, that will fix things. But on the contrary, that makes things worse. If someone says something awful on the internet, and everyone either ignores…

>silencing everyone who disagrees with you That is not remotely what is being suggested. Toxicity is when a site devoted to people mourning a synagogue massacre is overwhelmed by spamming neo-nazis. Toxicity is annihilating a site's function: a site where climate scientists discuss findings needs to be free of an flood of spam from climate change deniers and paid petroleum sock puppets. Such a site exists for people…

> > silencing everyone who disagrees with you

> That is not remotely what is being suggested.

> Toxicity is when a site devoted to people mourning a synagogue massacre is overwhelmed by spamming neo-nazis.

> Toxicity is annihilating a site's function: a site where climate scientists discuss findings needs to be free of an flood of spam from climate change deniers and paid petroleum sock puppets. Such a site exists for people to do their job not waste every day repeating the same basic information available elsewhere easier to people who came intentionally to disrupt.

You only have to look around on this thread to see that "silencing everyone who disagrees with you" is exactly what's being suggested.

Reddit/Facebook/Twitter are being held up as examples of places where deplatforming has worked, and where deplatforming should be more broadly applied. These aren't single-function sites.

Moderation to keep discussions on a topic existed long before deplatforming, and is not the same thing.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#825
post #274

Discussions like this are frustrating to me because they always seem to skip over what feels like a crucial element: Do you know _why_ this uptick has happened? Does anyone? I get the feeling, in general, when people talk about wanting to "Do Something" about this sort of thing, they are always focused on managing the symptom and never focused on addressing the cause. Frequently, when I try to bring this up, the caus…

> Do you know _why_ this uptick has happened? Does anyone?

Are you asking why polarization has happened? Or why is had gotten worse? The answer to the first is all about control. There's a great book called The Dictator's Handbook that documents this. Throughout history, the ruling class has sought to divide the people they rule over into groups and then cater to the groups that will help them remain in power. See the current situation in the United States where the president won by less than 50% of the vote and the majority party in the Senate represents a minority of Americans. Between the various tools for voter amplification and voter suppression, the goal is to carve out the smallest group of people needed to win, then cater to their base emotions by painting everyone else as the Other, to be feared and attacked.

As for why the uptick, that's due to technology. The Internet, ad placements, etc, have enabled these groups to execute on these strategies en masse.

As the expression goes, there's nothing new under the sun, just a reiteration of the past.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#826
post #697

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The term "flamewar" predates all social networks except Usenet. It was not an isolated occurrence in the early days of the net.

Are you responding to something I said? If so I can't tell what.

> The internet has been a dickfighting playground since at least the 90s

I was just reinforcing your point by pointing out one of the earliest phrases coined on the Internet is about people discussing a topic without civility.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#827

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My prediction is that this is what will, in the end, change; technology will advance far enough to severely de-anonymize online interaction, at which point one's reputation again comes into play and people will find there are consequences for thoughtless shitposting. It has begun to happen, with phenomena such as people being fired for Facebook or Twitter posts. It doesn't seem impossible to tie a sufficiently-advanc…

> technology will advance far enough to severely de-anonymize online interaction, at which point one's reputation again comes into play and people will find there are consequences for thoughtless shitposting. This is naive. Facebook has just as many extremist bigots as any other anonymous platform.

[citation needed]

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#828

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not everyone leads hard left/right. Most people are centrists. So say you want to be a progressive left, but on issue "x" you don't stand with the left. You can't vocalize this because doing so will have people call you "not really left" or "a bigot" or "not seeing past your privilege." You can go two ways. You can not want to leave your political home and double down and go harder left ... or you find dissenting voi…

I’m generally pretty respectful of the idea that people are entitled to make their views public. This is healthy. I don’t think this means that everybody is entitled to have their views broadcast on every platform. Presumably we could agree there’s a line somewhere, at which point it’s acceptable for me, as a company, to refuse to allow views which I consider to be over that line to be broadcast on my platform? It’s…

> I’m generally pretty respectful of the idea that people are entitled to make their views public. This is healthy. I don’t think this means that everybody is entitled to have their views broadcast on every platform. Presumably we could agree there’s a line somewhere, at which point it’s acceptable for me, as a company, to refuse to allow views which I consider to be over that line to be broadcast on my platform?

"Acceptable" is a pretty vague word. What actions are we talking about here? Lobbying and petitioning companies? Boycotting them? Demanding governments regulate speech on their platforms?

It's my opinion that forcing people to propagate ideas they disagree with is just as bad as preventing people from propagating ideas they do agree with: these are two sides of the same coin: free speech. So at the level of government, I would never support laws that forced platforms to allow any sort of speech on their platform.

However, Reddit/Facebook/etc. respond to the demands of their users, so the question I'm trying to answer is: what should we, as users, be demanding?

I think the correct response to hatred isn't to shut them out: that's just responding to hatred with hatred. I think the correct response to hatred is to respond with love: assuage fears, correct ignorance, and help the hateful person to find a better way.

> I’d probably refuse to be friends with people who had certain other views I find particularly offensive too. Is that strange or unhealthy?

This certainly isn't going to be a popular opinion, but yes, I would say this is unhealthy.

Communication is a two way street. If you want to communicate your ideas into the world, you have to be willing to hear the ideas of others. In this sense, connection is power: people who disconnect themselves from people give up the ability to change those people. And the people who you can change the most are those the most unlike you.

You have to realize that people come to the beliefs they have due, at least partly, to circumstance and education. Maybe there's some degree of nature in it--maybe some people are inherently hateful. But if that is the case, I haven't met any of those people. When I talk to bigoted people at length, I often discover that they have led difficult lives, and based on their experience, blame some other group they don't understand for the difficulties they have experienced. They aren't doing this out of malice: on the contrary, they are usually doing it because they care about their own families and communities. The problem isn't that they are naturally bigoted, it's that they're afraid and ignorant, and both of those things are fixable.

By choosing to cut someone out of your life, you're choosing to treat them not as a normal person with fears and gaps in their experience, but as an inherently bad person. I don't think that is a healthy position to take.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#829
post #515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't know if I know the solution, but I know one thing that isn't the solution: silencing everyone who disagrees with you. I'm not a fan of trying to SILENCE anyone, however as a private entity, no corporation is required to allow anyone to use their platform for (nearly) any reason. Twitter can ban me today because they don't like my shoes. Facebook can ban me because Mark Zuckerberg thinks I look funny. Google…

The fact that corporations can silence whoever they want doesn't change that silencing everyone who disagrees with you is a bad solution that won't work, sorry.

Me not helping someone speak is not the same as silencing them.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#830

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might want to familiarize yourself more with services before making sweeping arguments about what excluding them means for the discourse.

Having complete information before forming any opinion is an impossibly high standard. My opinion is based on what I know, and I've been pretty open about what I don't know. If you feel there's some relevant information I'm missing, I'd be really happy to hear it, but pointing out that I don't know everything is fairly uninformative. Let's keep the discussion on the topic, not on me.

The standard you're being held to isn't "complete information".
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