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Ask HN: How to reskill without losing income?

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Re: Ask HN: How to reskill without losing income?

#81

Post by mreiland »

BadassFractal wrote: post #74
vijayr wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that someone who doesn't have side projects isn't as attractive as someone who does, in general. But there are lots of people who don't do any programming once they leave the office (8-9 hours of computer time is more than enough for them). That doesn't mean that they aren't dedicated or that they are a risk. I think it should be a case by case basis.

Fundamentally, risk isn't binary. There's more risk and there's less risk. For my kind of team, the absence of side projects, demonstrated lack of interest in furthering one's craft outside of paid hours increases the risk of this person not being able to pull his weight, if somehow he slips through the regular filtering mechanisms. As you pointed out, every candidate presents a unique risk profile, and every company…

I work for myself specifically to avoid people like you.

Re: Ask HN: How to reskill without losing income?

#83

Post by BadassFractal »

mreiland wrote: post #81
BadassFractal wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fundamentally, risk isn't binary. There's more risk and there's less risk. For my kind of team, the absence of side projects, demonstrated lack of interest in furthering one's craft outside of paid hours increases the risk of this person not being able to pull his weight, if somehow he slips through the regular filtering mechanisms. As you pointed out, every candidate presents a unique risk profile, and every company…

I work for myself specifically to avoid people like you.

I work for myself specifically to be able to isolate the kind of developers that will make my organization successful. It's wonderful that we all have the opportunity to choose what kind of environment we want to work in.

Re: Ask HN: How to reskill without losing income?

#84

Post by philjr »

marcos123 wrote: post #50
WorldWideWayne wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And (this might be obvious), but read, read, read! That's what works for me at least. Articles, books, blogs, IRC, IRC chat logs, Github issues, etc. When I am learning something new I might spend a few days (or even weeks depending on the subject) reading around about it before I take that first step to build my side project.

My brain works the opposite way, so I would caution against this. I don't truly learn until I actually start doing.

In my experience you need to do both!

Re: Ask HN: How to reskill without losing income?

#86

Post by newton10471 »

WorldWideWayne wrote: post #22
hkarthik wrote: post #13

I did this back in 2009. Here's how to do it. Pick a technology stack that you want to get a job in and build a side project in your spare time. Attend meetups with experts in your local community and learn how to make it awesome. Build relationships with them along the way. Use those relationships to get some part-time contract work in said technology stack with someone local. Document this experience and build up a…

And (this might be obvious), but read, read, read! That's what works for me at least. Articles, books, blogs, IRC, IRC chat logs, Github issues, etc. When I am learning something new I might spend a few days (or even weeks depending on the subject) reading around about it before I take that first step to build my side project.

Reading to learn is not borne out by research as a good way to build and retain skills, and can just as likely create illusions of competence http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect. Research shows it's far better to just start doing the activity. The reading should just be used to get you just to the point where you can start doing.

Re: Ask HN: How to reskill without losing income?

#87

Post by vijayr »

phaus wrote: post #80
vijayr wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that someone who doesn't have side projects isn't as attractive as someone who does, in general. But there are lots of people who don't do any programming once they leave the office (8-9 hours of computer time is more than enough for them). That doesn't mean that they aren't dedicated or that they are a risk. I think it should be a case by case basis.

As someone who struggles to find enough time for side projects, I agree that it isn't necessarily a sign that someone isn't passionate about the job. However, if someone says stuff like "I'd never work on something I'm not being paid for, I'm a serious professional that's irresponsible", its pretty obvious that they don't actually like what they are doing.

pretty obvious that they don't actually like what they are doing

Not to get into a debate, but there are tons of people who don't like what they are doing. But they are still good at it. Sure they may not be truly happy, but they are good at what they do even if they don't like it.

Re: Ask HN: How to reskill without losing income?

#88

Post by dagw »

phaus wrote: post #80
vijayr wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that someone who doesn't have side projects isn't as attractive as someone who does, in general. But there are lots of people who don't do any programming once they leave the office (8-9 hours of computer time is more than enough for them). That doesn't mean that they aren't dedicated or that they are a risk. I think it should be a case by case basis.

As someone who struggles to find enough time for side projects, I agree that it isn't necessarily a sign that someone isn't passionate about the job. However, if someone says stuff like "I'd never work on something I'm not being paid for, I'm a serious professional that's irresponsible", its pretty obvious that they don't actually like what they are doing.

its pretty obvious that they don't actually like what they are doing.

My dad has been a mechanical engineer for almost 40 years and I struggle to think of anyone who enjoys their job as much as he does. Yet I have never once seen him do any personal "side projects" that are in any way related to his day job.

Re: Ask HN: How to reskill without losing income?

#89

Post by vijayr »

dagw wrote: post #88
phaus wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who struggles to find enough time for side projects, I agree that it isn't necessarily a sign that someone isn't passionate about the job. However, if someone says stuff like "I'd never work on something I'm not being paid for, I'm a serious professional that's irresponsible", its pretty obvious that they don't actually like what they are doing.

its pretty obvious that they don't actually like what they are doing. My dad has been a mechanical engineer for almost 40 years and I struggle to think of anyone who enjoys their job as much as he does. Yet I have never once seen him do any personal "side projects" that are in any way related to his day job.

Many people truly believe in not doing anything related to their career/job outside of their workplace. They do something totally different instead. One might train for a marathon in her spare time, instead of learning the newest JS framework for example.

The side project concept is fairly unique to digital workers, especially software engineers simple because we can. Noone asks an accountant or a secretary for side projects.

Re: Ask HN: How to reskill without losing income?

#90

Post by nilkn »

bbcbasic wrote: post #79
nilkn wrote: post #21

Do companies really try to pigeonhole developers into "tech stacks" so much that you'll be forced to revert to junior status to change? Unless we're talking about COBOL -> Haskell here, I think any decent company would be wary of overvaluing skills with a particular language or framework and undervaluing fundamentals.

They want you to be productive immediately, so they can assess you in the probation period, and get more bang for the buck from the outset. For example. If you are a C# programmer who has never done Java programming. It takes you 6-12 months to get reasonably up to speed with the JVM, standard libraries and idiomatic coding. Let alone any dependency injection, web framework etc. libraries. Why would the Java shop pay…

> Why would the Java shop pay you the same as a developer who has spent the last 5 years doing Java full time who can be productive in Java right away?

Because you bring a lot of other experience to the table, and in just six months you will be completely up to speed?

In any software company of real complexity it's going to take six months or so to really hit your stride anyway, regardless of whether you've used their stack before, because you'll still have to learn their codebase, standards, processes, etc.

If they underpay you, guess what any self-respecting and talented developer will do? Leave. They'll be gone the second they're up to speed with the new stack because they found someone else willing to pay the full rate.

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