Ask HN: Why is it so hard to find remote jobs in Europe? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Why is it so hard to find remote jobs in Europe?

#81

Post by ensignavenger » Mon, May 25, 2015, 5:26 PM UTC

dietrichepp wrote: post #48

gii2 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the communication should be easy part. We are living in digital world, where you talk to your friends online more than you see them face-2-face. The communication between colleagues is pretty much the same. Europe does not have so many timezones, but if you decided to go farther east, that's different issue. I don't think everyone in the team should be involved in the architectural decisions of your product. Th…

Digital communication still has a long way to go. If I'm in a room with two people, I can tell what they're looking at. If I'm in a video conference, I can only tell that they're looking at something on their screen. Humans are one of the few animals with a visible sclera, and I don't think that this is some kind of coincidence.

Use a pointer.

Re: Ask HN: Why is it so hard to find remote jobs in Europe?

#82

Post by georgerobinson » Mon, May 25, 2015, 5:59 PM UTC

gizi wrote: post #62

themartorana wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most anyone in sales will tell you there is absolutely no substitute for in-person, face-to-face (not face-to-face-on-screen) meetings. It establishes trust. There is more to conversation than words (and our brains are built to pick up on it). Not everyone is an architect, but even sharing knowledge, code review reviews, and so on - all better in person in general. Remote isn't bad, per-se, but having worked remote,…

The less the product matters, the more the salesman does. So, yes, in order to sell something that the other side has no interest in buying, you should go face-to-face. Google, on the other hand, has never sent out even a single salesman to talk people into using their search engine or to bid for ads on it. Therefore, for me, it works the other way around. If a company has salesmen, their product must be totally unim…

Can someone explain why this comment is being down voted? I think the author makes a valid point.

When I choose my iPhone, my MacBook Air, my Martin acoustic guitar, etc, I didn't need a salesman to explain to me how great these products were. I went into the store and tried them out for myself. No one ever had to convince me to purchase the product. The product did that by itself.

On the other hand, if someone has to convince me to purchase a product I was never looking to purchase, or over a competitors, the product probably wasn't that great in the first place.

Re: Ask HN: Why is it so hard to find remote jobs in Europe?

#83

Post by junto » Mon, May 25, 2015, 6:08 PM UTC

keithpeter wrote: post #42

learnstats2 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My very first employer didn't have a consistent quantity of work for me to do and often made me sit in the office with just a chair and not even a desk. I proposed to the manager that I would rather be on call (even unpaid) in the library next-door than sit in the office paid with nothing to do. The manager agreed that there was nothing for me to do and agreed that there was nothing wrong with what I was proposing in…

My Dad worked for Marconi in Liverpool fixing radar and radios for ships late fifties and early 60s before they became a large multi-national. Certain kinds of staff were not always needed in the workshop e.g. radio officers signing off on repairs. They hung out in a Dock Road pub. The techies wired up a loudspeaker to the pub (not radio, I suspect they hacked the Reddifusion cable radio) and called the staff when ne…

There a few classics like this from the 70's when the unions had immense power in the UK and there was lots of over employment in what was then public companies. Examples I remember were a false wall in the back of a British Steel factory which was setup with rows of bunk beds on the quiet so that only 1 in 3 had to do any work. The rest were paid to sleep. Also had employees on the books with the rather blatant names of D. Duck and M. Mouse.

Re: Ask HN: Why is it so hard to find remote jobs in Europe?

#84

Post by jotm » Mon, May 25, 2015, 6:26 PM UTC

gizi wrote: post #66

ar0 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But be aware that many European countries know laws against quasi-self-employment ("Scheinselbständigkeit" in German) to avoid people becoming self-employed to avoid social security taxes. So, even if you set-up your own company but this company only serves one client (your de-facto "employer"), you and/or your employer might be liable for social security payments neither of you did expect. So even such a set-up migh…

In Germany itself, that would indeed be a major issue. Imagine, however, a company from Canada employing a German in France? Which country would manage to get in a position that they could collect social security payments? Germany would not see any part of that situation under its eyes. Canada just sees invoices coming in from abroad. France has no clue as to what that German does or with whom. This situation could l…

That German would be paying French income tax, since he's a resident. Unless he's listed as a resident in Germany and living in France without registering.

The other taxes, well, it's up to the person. If he wants a pension, he'll pay them in some country.

But what do I know, everyone I know is breaking some law in regards to taxes, so I might not be the best person to listen to...

Re: Ask HN: Why is it so hard to find remote jobs in Europe?

#85

Post by yetanotheracc » Mon, May 25, 2015, 6:27 PM UTC

soneca wrote: post #65

gizi wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have been doing remote work for 10 years now. Github and Gitlab (if you want to host privately) are the answers for me. Concerning communication and sitting together, my question remains: What exactly is it that you are able to say but incapable of writing? Over the years, I have become suspicious of someone who cannot write something but insists that he wants to say it, because when he is finally sitting there, gu…

But then you can help him put in words what is worrying him, even if he is incapable of saying. That's communication, dialogue. It is interaction in different levels, not just exchange of sequential, defined messages. When you limit the dimensions of a face-to-face communication to the dimenions of a written communication, it is tautological to say the are the same. But the advantage of face-to-face is exactly having…

I doubt there are many things in the area of software development that a competent professional can legitimately be incapable of putting in words.

It is obvious that face-to-face communication can be richer. But it does not follow that internet or just written communication is significantly deficient in an overwhelming majority of situations in our field.

Re: Ask HN: Why is it so hard to find remote jobs in Europe?

#86

Post by BerislavLopac » Mon, May 25, 2015, 7:31 PM UTC

EliRivers wrote: post #10

gii2 wrote: post #8

I couldn't agree more with jmnicolas - the situation is pretty similar in France, Switzerland, Belgium and Austria. There is some "hope" in UK and Germany, where they really expect to have something done. There was a guy (can't remember his name) who said that US is the only place where you can put US guys, Mexican, Chinese and ... (whoever) and make them work together. In Europe this is not the case, probably becaus…

I couldn't agree more with jmnicolas - the situation is pretty similar in France, Switzerland, Belgium and Austria. There is some "hope" in UK and Germany, where they really expect to have something done. Yet according to some (and it is open to interpretation) the UK has a lower productivity than France, by a pretty huge margin. It seems that the UK, while it might expect to have something done, by comparison actual…

There's UK, and then there's London. Could easily be a different country.

Re: Ask HN: Why is it so hard to find remote jobs in Europe?

#87

Post by S4M » Tue, May 26, 2015, 9:10 AM UTC

georgerobinson wrote: post #82

gizi wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The less the product matters, the more the salesman does. So, yes, in order to sell something that the other side has no interest in buying, you should go face-to-face. Google, on the other hand, has never sent out even a single salesman to talk people into using their search engine or to bid for ads on it. Therefore, for me, it works the other way around. If a company has salesmen, their product must be totally unim…

Can someone explain why this comment is being down voted? I think the author makes a valid point. When I choose my iPhone, my MacBook Air, my Martin acoustic guitar, etc, I didn't need a salesman to explain to me how great these products were. I went into the store and tried them out for myself. No one ever had to convince me to purchase the product. The product did that by itself. On the other hand, if someone has t…

I think gizi's point is pretty good (I upvoted it), but he misses the case where a company has to do some heavily customization on its product to satisfy the customer's needs, which is often the case in enterprise sales. In this case, especially if the user is not technical, it's better to have face to face meetings to understand what the customer needs.

Re: Ask HN: Why is it so hard to find remote jobs in Europe?

#88

Post by Michielvv » Tue, May 26, 2015, 10:41 AM UTC

I currently work partly remote: I go to the office for one day a week (8hr) and work the other 12 hours from home.

I like this arrangement as the day in the office also gives me insight into what else is going on, besides my immediate tasks. For example I may pick up on something that my coworker is spending a lot of time on that could easily be automated or a client request that may influence my schedule.

On the other hand the time remote gives me a chance to focus on harder issues.

What I like about the part-time aspect is that I can choose to just work when I'm focussed. If things are not moving as I like, I just stop working. This is also the disadvantage, because that way work spreads out over more days than it would if I would sit in the office.

In general I think the jobs are there, but you will probably have to know someone at the company that is already aware of your skills. Maybe first starting out as a contractor on a smaller project. (Assuming you would prefer a long-term job over contracting)

Re: Ask HN: Why is it so hard to find remote jobs in Europe?

#89

Post by eeeeeeeeeeeee » Tue, May 26, 2015, 1:59 PM UTC

4ad wrote: post #68

magiconair wrote: post #19

I am one of these managers in Amsterdam with an international team of 10 people from 8 different countries who still writes code. My desire is to have a team that gets the job done. The most effective way for them to do this IMO is to have them sit together so that they can discuss issues they have immediately. We are seeing effects of less effective communication of teams sitting just a few desks apart. Remote work…

Linux is built by tens of thousands of people, usually around 1,000 of them contributing to each minor release, with hundreds of maintainers of individual subsystem. These people are all over the world, and talk to each other by nothing more than e-mail, and "get the job done"; quite successfully I would say. I've only worked remotely the past 12 years, people communicate in writing just fine, as long as they care ab…

Yep I think the Linux Kernel and most any open source project is a perfect example of how remote work does work. The people that say you need to be "in the same room" seem to never give it a real chance and it's a convenient excuse for general communication failures these days.

I would also point out that working from home means significantly fewer disruptions (with the exception of kids in some cases -- I have a closed off office for work). I worked at a physical office and the number of "hey I have a quick question" scenarios was really frustrating when they could have googled it, yet it takes me out of my flow to stop and answer it and I lose focus. And this is not even counting the number of environment level interruptions you can't control in an office -- phone calls, people walking around, people laughing, chatting too loud, etc.

At least with communication mechanisms like HipChat/Slack it's more passive when people ask you questions. You can reach a stopping point and then answer them at your convenience.

Re: Ask HN: Why is it so hard to find remote jobs in Europe?

#90

Post by mcv » Tue, May 26, 2015, 2:00 PM UTC

gizi wrote: post #56

magiconair wrote: post #19

I am one of these managers in Amsterdam with an international team of 10 people from 8 different countries who still writes code. My desire is to have a team that gets the job done. The most effective way for them to do this IMO is to have them sit together so that they can discuss issues they have immediately. We are seeing effects of less effective communication of teams sitting just a few desks apart. Remote work…

I have been doing remote work for 10 years now. Github and Gitlab (if you want to host privately) are the answers for me. Concerning communication and sitting together, my question remains: What exactly is it that you are able to say but incapable of writing? Over the years, I have become suspicious of someone who cannot write something but insists that he wants to say it, because when he is finally sitting there, gu…

Having to put it in writing is still an extra hurdle. When someone is sitting next to you, it's easy to nudge him and ask "what do you make of this?". When he's somewhere else, you may have to paste or point to the code, possibly include screen shots, figure out how to give him access to the code running locally on your machine, etc. These are significant hurdles for really quick, short interactions.

Also: pair programming.