I have been approximately you a couple times. If it were me in your shoes again, I would leverage the huge amount of knowledge/skills I've acquired and jump into a new opportunity. There are basically 3 directions: 1) start your own company that you will build yourself, 2) find another startup in a similar spot to where you were 2 years ago, or 3) join a big company. I will say a likely outcome of joining a big company is you will be expected to focus, having relatively shallow but deep expertise (i.e. specialization of labor).
Ask HN: What's left for early startup engineers as the company grows?
81–90 of 193 posts
Re: Ask HN: What's left for early startup engineers as the company grows?
#82I see a number of posts saying that you're probably not experienced or qualified enough to hold these other positions. However, I don't think the VP of Eng, Dev Mgr, or OPS Mgr could do what you do...essentially help start and build a company from day one.
Those skills you've developed don't have much value at your current company any longer. They are most likely keeping you around for historical value and once the systems you built get replaced its over pretty quick. Take those skills elsewhere and brand yourself as someone who takes a company from 2 to n employees.
Not everyone has your skill set so learn how to market them. I'm on my second company where I was an early hire. I learned that you're way more valuable in the beginning then you are at the end. Eventually I got pushed out by management types because I held on to the notion that I helped build this company and deserved something for it. Don't wait too long to realize it.
Re: Ask HN: What's left for early startup engineers as the company grows?
#83Earlier quoted context omitted.
That sounds good too, but aren't you presupposing that this course of things is normal. The OP is saying things turned out differently than expected, and such dissonance really bugs him. Why would he work harder to communicate when working hard has failed so poorly in the past? Second and third world people probably have similar problems too.
In my experience, what other people thought you communicated and what you thought communicated are often very far apart. Its an amazing thing, Humans are so good at communication but also so bad. I know with my significant other multiple times we have both got upset with each other for actions/inaction that we thought we had communicated with the other, when either we hadnt or hadnt clearly. We have been together for…
Don't even try communicating with a group of 100 of these so called people; surely three of them will found a religion based on misunderstanding your point, especially if you are the OP.
Re: Ask HN: What's left for early startup engineers as the company grows?
#84One thing you need to come to grips is that regardless of how smart you are, the VP of engineering is probably someone that has a lot more experience and clout than you do. If they aren't, then the senior management of the company is terrible. If your company has grown to the size of 40-50 people, that's the time when they need real experience to help drive them forward. They can't take a chance on a great programmer…
Why is it acceptable for the Founder/CEO to continue leading the company at 40+ employees but not acceptable for the engineer to lead an engineering team at 40+ employees? Seems like a double standard.
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Re: Ask HN: What's left for early startup engineers as the company grows?
#85I went through the same thing at a start-up I founded (with others). It ran for 10 years and I never jockeyed for a management position. I just stayed a developer. In the end the fact that I was a founder who played a giant role in building the company meant nothing. I got sucked into one of many layoffs. No severance. Just back vacation pay and a fake tone of regret from the new engineering manager who made the call. The other founders had already left years before me and went on to even bigger and better things. I stayed because it was comfortable, but I regret not leaving years sooner.
I would guess most people there don't even know who you are, right? They might even know, but they probably don't get it because what you did in the past doesn't matter. Your company is becoming more corporatized and in that environment all that matters is your title. Since now it's likely just "developer" or "senior dev" or something, you're just another scrub with a good backstory.
If I were you I'd update my CV to reflect the contributions you made then start working your network to find the next thing.
Re: Ask HN: What's left for early startup engineers as the company grows?
#86The rub with startups is that leadership may not have experience with developing careers. From what you've written, it seems like you really don't have a lot of experience developing careers either, which is one reason to bring in an experienced engineering manager. It's not a knock on your skillset managing a 10 person team and delivering. Just a realization that management isn't something you can just quickly learn…
Agree with this advice. You should talk to your manager and work out a plan to achieve your career goals within the company. This is a significant part of your manager's job responsibilities, and assuming they are good a good manager, then they will be more than happy to work with you on this. You are obviously an important part of the organization and if they have any common sense, they will want to retain you. And…
As employee #2 he should be talking to (presumably, his friend), the CEO, regardless of who his manager technically is.
Re: Ask HN: What's left for early startup engineers as the company grows?
#87All I see here is positives. Congratulations on building a startup.
Never been in your situation so my suggestions may not be appropriate. From the order you specified the tasks I think for you Technical Strategy aspect ranks highly. I think it gave you great challenges and satisfaction. If that's true then I suppose a role would be that of a CTO given that one of the founder is not playing that role.
Here is Fred Wilson's take on CTO vs VP of Engineering. http://avc.com/2011/10/vp-engineering-vs-cto/
Re: Ask HN: What's left for early startup engineers as the company grows?
#88As a technical founder I actually face the issue on the other side, which is how to keep those that have been around for 5+ years challenged and motivated. Here are a few things I've learned that might help with perspective:
1. You shouldn't be afraid to ask for what you want. As a founder, it's tough to always know what goes on in everyone's mind. I try as much as I can but when I'm a part of the conversation I will be able to help much more than just being looped in after a conclusion is reached.
Every good developer wants to be challenged. Some want to stay on the technical side, others grow into managers, and some like to blend the two. Talk to the ceo/founders and let them know how you feel. I'm sure they appreciate what you've done so far and will be happy to figure out the future.
2. You're at a very unique position where not only do you know how the entire system works but you also know how it's supposed to work. This gives you the ability to contribute to any of the different roles you mentioned in a really meaningful capacity.
One of the comments said something about not being good at those. I mostly disagree with that on principle. Just because you don't have the training doesn't mean you won't be an awesome manager. Some companies actually don't hire managers but rather promote. I believe LinkedIn is one of those companies, and they do it because they want those the manager will oversee to really trust the manager. That's something that, as a developer, you can do when you've seen the person's work.
3. The skills needed to get something off the ground are somewhat different from those needed to take it to "the next level". It doesn't mean you can't have both, but it is a question you should ask yourself. Do you like the rush and the excitement of creating something new? Or do you like the joy of seeing a large system run smoothly at super scale with time to sleep? Or both.
Re: Ask HN: What's left for early startup engineers as the company grows?
#89I'd focus on a repeating theme in your post, "and now they". This suggests that you already see a division between the management of the company and yourself. You haven't been part of the decision making process and feel that all possible angles have been locked out by an outside agency. How much feedback have you given to the company management that you would be interested in those positions before they where "taken…
Sure, but I think this is just normal as a company grows.
When the company is tiny, you have a ton of hats. As the company grows, those hats become too big for you to wear all of them, and so you ("they") hire some people to take some of those hats from you.
As a developer, if you don't have clear aspirations toward management, usually you go nowhere: your influence erodes until you end up "just another developer", regardless of your tenure in the company.
If you do want to keep doing development, then you need to push management (early on) to create a technical track that's parallel to the management track. There should be technical positions (that come with no direct reports) that are at the same level (both prestige and pay) as manager, director, VP, etc. They need to be well defined, and it should be clear how it's expected that a developer will progress to those levels.
So what I'm saying is that I don't think the OP's real problem is that he has fewer roles, but just that, as the company has grown, he's remained a "leaf node" in the org chart, which just gets deeper as time goes on. If you think about the management hierarchy as your own hierarchy, that's just naturally going to happen. If you have parallel tracks, it stings a bit less.
Or, the OP is basically just built to work at small companies, and he should plan on joining a company when it's small, and then hopping to another small company when it gets too large. That's a perfectly valid strategy, too.
Re: Ask HN: What's left for early startup engineers as the company grows?
#90I guess my question is, since you are employee #2, why are you not any of the guys you have named that "takes care of things". Like, it would be pretty normal for you to be that VP of engineering or Engineering manager. Have you sought for a more senior role?