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Ask HN: Can calculus be taught without differentiating or integrating by hand?

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Re: Ask HN: Can calculus be taught without differentiating or integrating by hand?

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you propose to teach them different methods of solving. I think, while your mapping from solution methods to professions makes sense, the act of solving should be taught as an afterthought. The goal should be to build a robust mental model. Personally i find playing around with computer visualisations helps a lot with that. The same is even more important for differential equations, imo. I wish i would have spent…

The whole education can be seen as a sieving process routing people towards their natural abilities as needed by the economy. It starts very early with things like mental calculus, where you try to get kids to compute things like 99 times 101, 98 times 102, finding tricks and rules to make the computation "easier". We could instead teach them to follow mentally some multiplication algorithm, but instead we try to pro…

I'm not sure i understand your answer, to be honest, especially the cat fable.

> as needed by the economy

Even if that is the purpose of education, a mathematician, engineer or physicist who has a deep understanding is worth more to the economy, than one who can remember and perform algorithms and computations, isn't he?

Re: Ask HN: Can calculus be taught without differentiating or integrating by hand?

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole education can be seen as a sieving process routing people towards their natural abilities as needed by the economy. It starts very early with things like mental calculus, where you try to get kids to compute things like 99 times 101, 98 times 102, finding tricks and rules to make the computation "easier". We could instead teach them to follow mentally some multiplication algorithm, but instead we try to pro…

I'm not sure i understand your answer, to be honest, especially the cat fable. > as needed by the economy Even if that is the purpose of education, a mathematician, engineer or physicist who has a deep understanding is worth more to the economy, than one who can remember and perform algorithms and computations, isn't he?

From the individual intellectual point of view it's better to have a better education, but from the collective point of view having too many wild cards is not good for anyone. If there are too many physicists, they won't earn enough to justify the cost of the studies, and won't be happy in a menial job after spending years learning advanced mathematics.

If anybody can do everything interchangeably, it also tends to create a monoculture which is a more fragile system.

Often it's better not knowing how the sausage is made, and trusting that people who have specialized know what they are doing.

Wild cats ("overeducated population") are dangerous.

Re: Ask HN: Can calculus be taught without differentiating or integrating by hand?

#83
> Maybe the focus could be on solving calculus problems with the help of a symbolic algebra system instead?

Umm..

Like this -> https://www.mytutor.co.uk/answers/7336/A-Level/Further-Mathe...

Beyond the simple case shown in [1], by hand making sure the logical type/denomiator is consistent across an entire exercise/problem working beyond basics is extremely time consuming/difficult.

abstract case: Think y-combinator stuff and how quickly the information grows for one term to get rid of all free variables. aka simplified continuitiy/consistency of logic type use. is 1 imaginary, real, integer, vector, trig value, etc

[1] : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OIiLu5xn-E

Re: Ask HN: Can calculus be taught without differentiating or integrating by hand?

#84
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pedagogy cannot know how knowledge is generated in the human mind. Pedagogy can advise on how to construct the process of education, like classrooms or grades, but it cannot know what knowledge of calculus is. Moreover, no one knows what is knowledge, how it works, and how it can be acquired. If it was known, then AI developers would already have build a general artificial intelligence. There are some known rituals,…

I feel like you are trying to border on philosophical 'knowing' rather than the very established body of evidence around cognition and understanding, and the ability to share and pass information to another. > no one knows what is knowledge, how it works, and how it can be acquired Chimps literally teach each other to use rocks as tools. Clearly knowledge or 'how to accomplish a task' is something that can be communi…

> Chimps literally teach each other to use rocks as tools. Clearly knowledge or 'how to accomplish a task' is something that can be communicated to another.

Yes, and no.

Lets take calculus as an example and the skill to take derivatives. If a teacher show you how to take derivatives, you'll kinda get the idea but if you try it, you would face a lot of problems and you probably would need teacher's help.

To become proficient with derivatives, you need to teach yourself by taking a lot of derivatives. But... wait... you are taking derivatives, you're not doing something special that can be called "learning".

Chimps also communicate knowledge by showing the right "ritual" how to accomplish things, students reproduce ritual and somehow learn how to do it properly.

The whole education works mostly in this vein, the method is to make people to do something, and while they are doing it they'll learn how to do it. Magic.

The communication doesn't transfer all the knowledge, and it is pointless to try, because people are different and edge cases are different for different people. For example, I'm always confusing left and right, it was a pain to deal with the driving instructor who would say "turn left at the next crossing" and then I will dutifully turn right. I can deal with it most of the times, I just need to pay more attention to "left" and "right" things. But it is my specific edge case, if I teach others I do not try to communicate the necessity of paying attention for words "left" and "right", and when someone teaches me they do not communicate this to me. There are a lot of such individual edge cases and the more difficult the knowledge the more individual it becomes.

Of course there are textbooks with selected problems in the selected order that works better than other problems or in other order. We can even explain why these problems and why this order, but I do not believe these explanations, they are explanations in hindsight, they look suspiciously as rationalizations, and they either lack the predictive power, or there is no research trying to falsify their predictions.

It maybe a philosophical take on the problem, but if it is so than pedagogy and psychology is even worse, because it should be their task to explain what happens, how it happens, why learning is indistinguishable from doing. Why these problems in this order? Shouldn't we personalize problem sets and their order? How to personalize? Pedagogy says you just try standard approach and if it doesn't work, then try something else, and keep trying different things until something works.

Pedagogy mostly like this, shamanism and black magic. There was alchemy that nowadays considered unscientific, I hope that at some point in the future modern pedagogy will be considered unscientific because it was transform into a science, like alchemy was transformed into chemistry. The science that can take any knowledge, dissect it, and produce a plan of educational activities, that will teach this knowledge to others. And not just this, but I hope the future pedagogy will be able to prove that this plan is the best possible plan, all others will be worse, will need more time, more effort or whatever. I hope that the future pedagogy will forget an idea of a "great teachers" like Feynman, because it will be able to educate anyone to be as a great teacher as Feynman was. It will be a new era, when colleges will easily educate people into Einsteins, Newtons, Archimedeses (how to properly make Archimedes plural in English?), Shakespears, you just name it.

I'll add a couple of anecdotes, to show how little we know on how our mind works.

Sometimes I cannot explain how I managed to understand some topic, and why I struggled with it initially. The last example of this is borrow-checker in Rust. It is simple and obvious now, but at first I fought battles with it and I've lost most of the battles. What have changed in my mind between then and now? I don't really know, I have one guess, but a very vague one: code patterns which I learned the hard way. It is a vague answer because I cannot enumerate the new patterns I learned and the old patterns from C that I was forced to reject. It was just like something clicked in my mind, and now my mind can write Rust code easily. Magic! (Moreover this guess is not my invention, I've read something somewhere in internet, got this idea and it kinda fits in the sense it doesn't contradict to any facts I know. I don't know what happens in my mind when I'm writing Rust and what was happening when I couldn't write Rust.)

There was another example from my undergraduate studies. I struggled with group theory for several months and I couldn't understand what exactly I didn't understand. It seemed like I understood everything and somehow at the same time I understood nothing. At some point something clicked in my mind and I really understood everything. But with this example I know exactly what was wrong: my mental geometric model of groups, factor groups and these things was constructed wrongly. As I fixed it, it started to work wonderfully. And no pedagogy could help me with this, it was a geometric model for internal use only. I'm not sure it is possible to communicate it, and I bet that no teacher would ask me to communicate it. Though if I just talked with someone knowledgeable about group theory in "informal" mode, without strict definitions and proofs, it could probably help me to find my mistake earlier (in "formal" mode I'd catch my mistakes by formal methods and patch them, no one would notice them except me). How to debug something like this in a mind of a living person?

Re: Ask HN: Can calculus be taught without differentiating or integrating by hand?

#85

Physics

Or association of lables/groups of actions with binary unit encodings[3]. aka programming languages (integration) and binary encodings (differentiation of groups of bits associate with programming language feature(s) into how relates/associates with underlying hardware aka compilation or on line by line basis via scripting).

programming language 'type' punning gives programmer way to use/access an associated encoding (typically binary) and programming language abstraction[2][3]. aka ieee floating point specification[1][2] -- programming language level -- just the typical human readable number notation vs. binary encoding is just linear group of bits, where portion is number, portion is exponent.

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"Modeling Practices in Calculus" approach ideas:

"string art generator" : https://github.com/halfmonty/StringArtGenerator

"Turing up the code" : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30914603

assuming writing & finger presses don't count as 'by hand':

    running code on paper using just the phone camera : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rb8kE-e2FXs

    "stand-up comedy routine about spreadsheets " : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBX2QQHlQ_I
-----

[1] : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_754

      vs. church encoding : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_encoding
[2] : "Learning that you can use unions in C for grouping things into namespaces" : http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28026612

[3] : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_punning

    : punning with character : gawk chapter "11.3.11 And Now for Something Completely Different" program 

    : nil-punning : https://ericnormand.me/article/nil-punning

    : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_type

Re: Ask HN: Can calculus be taught without differentiating or integrating by hand?

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure i understand your answer, to be honest, especially the cat fable. > as needed by the economy Even if that is the purpose of education, a mathematician, engineer or physicist who has a deep understanding is worth more to the economy, than one who can remember and perform algorithms and computations, isn't he?

From the individual intellectual point of view it's better to have a better education, but from the collective point of view having too many wild cards is not good for anyone. If there are too many physicists, they won't earn enough to justify the cost of the studies, and won't be happy in a menial job after spending years learning advanced mathematics. If anybody can do everything interchangeably, it also tends to c…

Interesting point of view. I have to think about it.

Re: Ask HN: Can calculus be taught without differentiating or integrating by hand?

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could teach calculus via a video game programming class, physics as well, just through the things you need to build a video game. Calculus and even physics never clicked for me until I actually used them productively.

This is also a good example of why we teach things that might seem "useless". You just don't know what someone will find useful in their life. The teachers probably didn't even think of video games having physics and needing to understand it for that. In my uni class I think I was the only one to use forces and masses (and therefore acceleration) instead of just speed. I initially used speed but then my school learni…

I'd rather start the other way around: teach things steeped in the context that they are useful in. Everything is useful, so teach them usefully. Not all of us are great at storing away knowledge and accessing it much later when we find it actually useful.

Re: Ask HN: Can calculus be taught without differentiating or integrating by hand?

#88
I've taught undergrad and grad math. I think in principle you can, but only if your audience will either not need it in the future, or only need it superficially. If a student continues their path and become a practitioner they will need to know how the lower level stuff works, in order to be effective at their art. Just like a regular hacker, a "math hacker" won't be able to do magic without an intimate knowledge of the inner workings of their tools.

Re: Ask HN: Can calculus be taught without differentiating or integrating by hand?

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

curious, what was covered in Calculus 4? Quadruple integrals? More vector valued stuff shading into proper linear algebra? Diff Eq?

Calculus 3 in the U.S. is multi-variable calculus. Sometimes and introduction to linear algebra is given in this course. Calculus 4 is differential equations. It’s almost never officially called Calculus 4. Sometimes an introduction to linear algebra is given in this course.

Okay that makes sense, that's how the classes went for me in the US, with Calc 3 being multi variable (and as you say, a brush with linear alg via vector-valued functions), and 2 sideways steps from there, one being a course on PDEs and the other on linear algebra, both called by those names rather than listed as a step in the calculus sequence itself.

Re: Ask HN: Can calculus be taught without differentiating or integrating by hand?

#90

What exactly does this look like? Do you have example problems you can point to?

When I was doing an associate's in engineering, our calculus and differential equations courses were like this. We'd learn some math, do some problems by hand, then we'd have a lab component where we were introduced to either methods in a computer algebra system or some numerical methods. The problems we solved there were word problems that had the higher level physics already set up for us, so that we ended up just having to solve the calculus or differential equation portion of the problem.

The calculus books we used were not set up like this and the books that focused on learning the CAS or numerical methods weren't structured any better. I think this only worked because it was a small program aimed at technical education with a faculty that cared about developing a unified curriculum.

When I transferred to a different university to finish a degree as a stats major, all of our courses and most of the textbooks were structured in a way to use R. We did some problems on simple linear regression by hand, but very quickly it becomes impractical do to it any other way. This seemed very natural to me, but apparently it was not the typical experience of studying statistics.

Perhaps there are some calculus books out there that do a good job of both teaching calculus concepts and using CAS / numerical methods, but my narrow minded view is that calculus is a tool for physics, engineering, or other applications, and you'll be bogged down in teaching the relevant domain knowledge to get interesting examples. If you're looking for your own examples, perhaps this could be done purely through the differential calculus topics of related rates and optimization or the integral calculus topics of simple ordinary differential equations.

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