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Ask HN: What makes Windows 11 perform much worse than Windows XP?

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Re: Ask HN: What makes Windows 11 perform much worse than Windows XP?

#81
post #79
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a ton more "features" in the OS Including things you like quite a bit, such as WiFi support, thread scheduling, and suspend modes that are worth a damn. XP could be snappy, but I haven't forgotten how poorly my old XP two-thread laptop multitasked, how the battery didn't last more than an hour, and so on. Also worth remembering everyone always has a browser open today. In the XP days, you were running Firef…

My wife's new laptop (some Acer...) with preinstalled Win11 won't sleep and won't hibernate. My old Tinkpad X60 with WinXP Tablet can do both. So... not a valid argument.

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: What makes Windows 11 perform much worse than Windows XP?

#82

Casey Muratori has some great YouTube videos (a.k.a.: rants) about the end-user visible performance degradation over the last two decades despite computers becoming 10-100x faster by various metrics. E.g.: Visual Studio Rant https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GC-0tCy4P1U How fast should an unoptimized terminal run? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxM8QmyZXtg The root cause is that Microsoft simply doesn't have performan…

I wish I could up-vote you 10x.

Re: Ask HN: What makes Windows 11 perform much worse than Windows XP?

#83
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a ton more "features" in the OS Including things you like quite a bit, such as WiFi support, thread scheduling, and suspend modes that are worth a damn. XP could be snappy, but I haven't forgotten how poorly my old XP two-thread laptop multitasked, how the battery didn't last more than an hour, and so on. Also worth remembering everyone always has a browser open today. In the XP days, you were running Firef…

XP could be snappy, but I haven't forgotten how poorly my old XP two-thread laptop multitasked, how the battery didn't last more than an hour, and so on. That is a hardware issue. XP can use far more cores, and I bet if you had the drivers, it would run much better than 10 or 11 on a recent laptop and give even better battery life.

>XP can use far more cores

Only for the 64-bit version, which was very uncommon for most of the XP lifetime.

Almost everybody on XP was using a 32-bit version, which only uses two cores at the most.

Using select 2014 PC's which are about the newest you could get that still supported XP and where proper XP drivers were easily available, a lot can still be done to make direct performance comparisons. These would be the first generation consumer/business UEFI PC's, originally shipped with 64-bit Windows 8. But also still offering drivers for W7, Vista, and XP if you were to prefer to install those instead or multiboot to them. Also among the first target machines to be expected to migrate to Windows 10 as soon as it became "the final Windows version going forward" from Windows 8.x. Some can have W11 installed without real difficulty too, and it runs the same apps correctly just like W10 without much more sluggishness.

But if you don't need more than 3.x GB of memory, and try W10 32-bit, you may find it's a lot less slow than W11. This is where nobody can deny it.

OTOH with XP 32-bit on the same hardware (including SSD and HD graphics) with all proper system drivers, nothing about it can be considered slow by comparison.

Much faster than almost all professional users of XP remember from back then, because 2014 hardware was so much more performant than 2004 or 2010.

On only two cores it just blows everything else away.

Except for Windows 98 of course on the same hardware without even proper system drivers (naturally only using a single core), but you have to remove all but 1GB of memory for that.

Re: Ask HN: What makes Windows 11 perform much worse than Windows XP?

#84

There are actually a lot of factors here, although if I had to sum it up in one, it would be "the hardware can support it." But more seriously: 1. There are a lot of security mitigations in modern Windows that add sometimes substantial runtime overhead, but offer significant protection. Writing an exploit for modern Windows is hard compared to XP SP1 and below. 2. The graphics are a lot more sophisticated. Animation…

2. The graphics are a lot more sophisticated. Animation and transparency and lots of good stuff. Strong disagree. Borderless icons floating in a sea of flatness is not "more sophisticated" by any means than the fully-customisable UI which was common in the XP era, and the huge amount of "skinning" that was also very popular. Transparent/translucent effects became common with Vista and that was run on the GPU, which w…

To your 5th point: newer generations have not been confronted with the hardware limitations older generations had to cope with.

Hence, optimization is not a skill new generations of developers are forced to learn.

Re: Ask HN: What makes Windows 11 perform much worse than Windows XP?

#85
post #42
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plus backward compatibility. They add code but never take it away.

Windows 11 won't run most DOS or Windows 3.1 or Win16 Windows 95/98/ME programs. XP does.

W10 32-bit will still do this (while W10 is still with us) after enabling NTVDM so it works like XP in this regard.

Re: Ask HN: What makes Windows 11 perform much worse than Windows XP?

#86
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do. It started up pretty quick. The hardware requirements for a "good" system were drastically different. A decent Windows 3.11 system had 16 megs of RAM... Windows XP needed at least 256 (maybe 512??). XP seemed like a pig when it first came out. Not as bad as Vista though...

16MB for a WfW 3.11 machine was a hell of a lot at the time 3.11 was launched. Most PCs in the installed base would have had 3-4MB. New systems in 1993 were coming with 4-8MB.

I ran Win310 on a Am496DX4 (100MHz) with 4MB FPM memory. I don't remember ever complaining it was slow.

The first time I remember complaining something was slow was Win98 start menu. Win95 kept it all in memory. Win98 read all the .lnk files every time the user clicked Start. First opening was atrociously slow because the files were not in cache. It was something like 2-3 seconds delay, while Win95 was instantaneous.

Re: Ask HN: What makes Windows 11 perform much worse than Windows XP?

#87
post #11

One thing to do is to turn off unnecessary services and startup programs. Once you do this, the system becomes amazingly fast. I had to recently setup up a WFH machine with just Chrome and nothing else. I ended up using Win10 (Win11 didn't support the mobo) and went through and uninstalled everything that was activated by default. I also set up autologin and fastboot. The system ends up booting from a cold start in a…

>setup up a WFH machine with just Chrome and nothing else.

If you really narrow your use case(s) you can disable all kinds of things that are taking up memory and distracting your processor.

I just did this for somebody too. Previously had current W11 since it came out, but the web platform was just changed, and suddently they couldn't keep Edge from interfering with the intended workflow any more.

The employer only ever claimed to support W10 and Chrome so that's what I cooked up for the multiboot menu now.

Only partitioned 32GB of space, and it's only about half full, there's nothing else installed except Chrome.

Edge has been fully neutralized, and it's smooth sailing.

No more Teams either, its webcamming in the browser now.

They've been at it doing WFH a long time, way before covid, years ago I tested a Linux distro using Chrome and it worked even though no Linux or Mac was supported.

Now with this stepwise change, for the actual tasks being accomplished, it does seem like a lot of the worker interaction with the main office which was once solely to co-ordinate with the team and all contribute very comparable value-added work independently, is now as familiar as possible while more likely being utilized to train a different entity to perform the value-added work in the future.

For this type of thing Windows 11 does appear to be offering more possibilities than ever before, but Windows 10 doesn't look like a real slouch either.

Re: Ask HN: What makes Windows 11 perform much worse than Windows XP?

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One word: nvme

I am fairly certain you're right about there being an nvme, but GP did also mention disabling a number of services.

>disabling a number of services.

This has always been helpful, now seems about essential.

The one I just worked on in my other reply has the regular old W11 on one partition and the clean new carefully prepared W10 on the other partition of the same chip-based SSD. Page File (swap file) and hibernation have been disabled, these are not needed since there is plenty of memory and it's a low-energy desktop PC.

When you boot from a cold start the UEFI firmware takes a couple more seconds since the extra partition is there, but after that W10 pops up in less than 20 seconds. It's not a very powerful PC, a bit below mid-consumer range, and it's a SATA version not nvme.

It's just not really painful at all to reboot between W10 and W11 whenever you want to.

The advantage is like having two different PCs, which is also the disadvantage because you have to install two OS's for real.

If I was a gamer I would want at least one OS to be that way, optimized but not exactly for WFH.

Re: Ask HN: What makes Windows 11 perform much worse than Windows XP?

#89
post #67

Experienced Developer / ex sysadmin here : short answer, they are bloated in every possible way and one reason is that software houses, developers, contributors, maintainers don't want listen users when they say: "I do not want this feature because I don't need it" so they do not give any power of choice to their users about disabling, deleting, removing, not installing features they don't want, they don't use or the…

P.S. I want to add ancillary rant here about the MODERN concept of PROFESSIONAL EDITION: I also have Apple computers, a MacBook Pro for example. If I take a MacOS version from the past, let say Snow Leopard, and compare it at the one in use on that computer right now , an allegedly PRO system, do the new version improve my job ? Because this means "PRO", right? Something you use in your profession , right? REALLY, NO, let's add some details: - Snow Leopard gave me the feel of something FAST , this one only at the beginning, after some service upgrades of the OS in use, the infamous rainbow disk started to spawn;

- On Snow leopard I could use dtrace/dtruss , here if I have to investigate an application, I have to reboot the system, disable the SIP and wait that the problem manifest. This is especially stupid, I mean to force a professional to follow this workflow depriving him root privilege on it's own system. Image if Linux decide to do something like that and you have to reboot a server to use trace.

- X is still a thing, I use it at work, In Snow Leopard it was integrated , now I have to install XQuartz, that, for what I know is a one-man-project, with all the problem it implies ( and I want to thank the maintainer for the recent bug fixes , solving problem I had ); - CUDA: I can't use CUDA, an industry standard on MAC, I was able to use it on previous version of MacOs until Apple decided it's bad for us, publicizing the delusional idea that I can do the same jobs of an high end GPU on an Mxxx processor.

- ZSH: at some point, Apple also decided BASH is bad for you and your life will be better with ZSH. So, let's throw away a consolidated standard tool for some hipster stuff facilitating script kiddies to have multicoloured, fluorescent, pimped cursors on it ! Obviously not 100% compatible with BASH, so you should modify your scripts to conform. Luckily, Bash can be restored.

So I can do LESS with this MODERN OS that a 10 years older version. But now it has more vivid colours and that's good for your mood. And, again, my perception is that it's slower, doing the same tasks I did on Snow Leopard.

Are pro version adding some professional tool, capability, whatever that improve my professional experience or productivity ? NO.

So, how is justified the "professional" adjective here ? It seems more marketing gimmick to me. I feel less productive, but I have Apple TV, Siri and tons of bloatware should be present on a PRO machine and sometimes, A VENT. Yes, the difference from pro and non-pro sometimes is that the pro version can better dissipate heat.

Think about it.

Re: Ask HN: What makes Windows 11 perform much worse than Windows XP?

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2. The graphics are a lot more sophisticated. Animation and transparency and lots of good stuff. Strong disagree. Borderless icons floating in a sea of flatness is not "more sophisticated" by any means than the fully-customisable UI which was common in the XP era, and the huge amount of "skinning" that was also very popular. Transparent/translucent effects became common with Vista and that was run on the GPU, which w…

To your 5th point: newer generations have not been confronted with the hardware limitations older generations had to cope with. Hence, optimization is not a skill new generations of developers are forced to learn.

newer generations have not been confronted with the hardware limitations older generations had to cope with.

That has been true for every new generation of programmers since the invention of computers. My uncle started to program using Fortran IV in the 60s and he said that the 'real' programmers at the time looked down on the likes of him for using such an inefficient high level language and not learning how to program properly.

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