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Ask HN: How common is developer burnout? Have you ever been burnt out?

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Re: Ask HN: How common is developer burnout? Have you ever been burnt out?

#81

Post by lolinder »

paulcole wrote: post #77
lolinder wrote: post #18

It's very common. If you search hn.algolia.com you'll turn up lots of articles and discussions, but this one [0] is the one that has stuck with me. Particularly that top comment by markdjacobsen: > One of my later insights was that burnout doesn't merely entail working too much (although that's certainly part of it); burnout often involves pouring too much of your heart and soul into something that does not love you…

> It's very common. This is like thinking that most comedians are depressed. The average/happy ones make for much less interesting stories. Yeah there’s lots of HN posts about “burnt out” developers but does that really mean it’s common? There’s lots of programmers.

I didn't make this clear in the original post I'm not just surveying HN queries to come to the conclusion that it's common. I'm currently in a management role at a highly mission-driven org, and helping people avoid burnout is a constant discussion because nearly everyone on the team has either been through it or at risk of it.

(The high burnout rates aren't because of external pressure, it's because the team is mostly here because they deeply care about the mission.)

Re: Ask HN: How common is developer burnout? Have you ever been burnt out?

#82

Post by hiAndrewQuinn »

zer00eyz wrote: post #36

>> I completed a pretty complex project. I was there for two years and it felt like a stressful meat grinder. For years I was doing high pressure projects and getting them launched. I loved it. I hated the part after, where I stopped giving a fuck about work. I moved to consulting. I only do the crazy parts (and get paid for it), take my praise, and my check, and go home. I dont stick around to do the part I hate. Gi…

I'm becoming more and more this way as the years go by, not less. My thirties are going to be interesting if my brain can keep up with my newfound stress tolerance.

Re: Ask HN: How common is developer burnout? Have you ever been burnt out?

#83

Post by paulcole »

lolinder wrote: post #81
paulcole wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's very common. This is like thinking that most comedians are depressed. The average/happy ones make for much less interesting stories. Yeah there’s lots of HN posts about “burnt out” developers but does that really mean it’s common? There’s lots of programmers.

I didn't make this clear in the original post I'm not just surveying HN queries to come to the conclusion that it's common. I'm currently in a management role at a highly mission-driven org, and helping people avoid burnout is a constant discussion because nearly everyone on the team has either been through it or at risk of it. (The high burnout rates aren't because of external pressure, it's because the team is most…

Here's an idea: stop talking about it.

If somebody's "burnt out" (for whatever definition of that you want to come up with), then sometimes it's just better for them to quit. It's not a great use of your time as a leader to be constantly discussing this.

If you've enacted change that allows motivated people to work where you work without "burn out" or you believe those changes are impossible to enact, what else is there for you to do?

If the root of the problem is that people are too wrapped up in the mission, look for people who don't care quite as much the next time you're hiring.

Or keep talking about burnout forever. That's an option, too.

Re: Ask HN: How common is developer burnout? Have you ever been burnt out?

#84

Post by jventura »

burutthrow1234 wrote: post #20

My career history (across different businesses): - 4 years working in-house on software tools. It was not very stressful but also didn't pay great and the tech stack was out of date. - 2 years doing boutique consulting. Lots of interesting challenges but very stressful and high pressure. Pay was surprisingly mediocre and there was a lot of sales involved. - 6 years in series A/B startups. Lots of autonomy but the hou…

> Ultimately I left tech and started working with people more directly which is way more fulfilling.

What do you do now, if you don't mind me asking?

Re: Ask HN: How common is developer burnout? Have you ever been burnt out?

#85

Post by johhns4 »

paulcole wrote: post #83
lolinder wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't make this clear in the original post I'm not just surveying HN queries to come to the conclusion that it's common. I'm currently in a management role at a highly mission-driven org, and helping people avoid burnout is a constant discussion because nearly everyone on the team has either been through it or at risk of it. (The high burnout rates aren't because of external pressure, it's because the team is most…

Here's an idea: stop talking about it. If somebody's "burnt out" (for whatever definition of that you want to come up with), then sometimes it's just better for them to quit. It's not a great use of your time as a leader to be constantly discussing this. If you've enacted change that allows motivated people to work where you work without "burn out" or you believe those changes are impossible to enact, what else is th…

If it is a constant issue where dedicated employees feel burnt out, then of course it is his business. I don't think the solution is to find less engaged people to work. It's not just about the employees, it is also about the general work and the value the team will bring. Maybe hiring low effort people will solve the problem, but then again so will no employees at all as well I suppose.

As a manager, you should work towards keeping people engaged, doing good work, while making sure they don't burn out.

If people are on the brink of burn out, it's not a "it's their own fault for caring about their work." It's because they're trying to do their actual jobs and care enough about the results.

I find this trend where we're just blaming people that burn out for caring about the work they do interesting, what's the end result? Just a bunch of people playing politics and laying around waiting for the day to end?

I rather work with someone that cares and does a good job but just needs a break, give them support so they can do their jobs, rather than force them to quit 'because they're a pain in the ass' for giving a shit.

Re: Ask HN: How common is developer burnout? Have you ever been burnt out?

#86

Post by paulcole »

johhns4 wrote: post #85
paulcole wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's an idea: stop talking about it. If somebody's "burnt out" (for whatever definition of that you want to come up with), then sometimes it's just better for them to quit. It's not a great use of your time as a leader to be constantly discussing this. If you've enacted change that allows motivated people to work where you work without "burn out" or you believe those changes are impossible to enact, what else is th…

If it is a constant issue where dedicated employees feel burnt out, then of course it is his business. I don't think the solution is to find less engaged people to work. It's not just about the employees, it is also about the general work and the value the team will bring. Maybe hiring low effort people will solve the problem, but then again so will no employees at all as well I suppose. As a manager, you should work…

If somebody cares about their job more than themselves, that’s not a good thing either. If the business can get results with people who don’t require constant discussion of and attention to burnout, why wouldn’t they take that alternative?

A manager can’t keep people engaged. A manager can create an environment where a person can choose to be engaged, but it’s not something the manager can conjure up.

Sure it’s great for a company to create an environment that lets people care about their work and be 100% happy with their work-life-balance, but to say that it’s solely the employer’s responsibility is passing the buck IMO.

Personally, I look out for my well-being and I know nobody else will care about that as much as I do. I’m not going to blame my employer for burning me out, I’m going to accept some of the responsibility as well because I’m the one who suffers most.

Re: Ask HN: How common is developer burnout? Have you ever been burnt out?

#87

Post by johhns4 »

paulcole wrote: post #86
johhns4 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it is a constant issue where dedicated employees feel burnt out, then of course it is his business. I don't think the solution is to find less engaged people to work. It's not just about the employees, it is also about the general work and the value the team will bring. Maybe hiring low effort people will solve the problem, but then again so will no employees at all as well I suppose. As a manager, you should work…

If somebody cares about their job more than themselves, that’s not a good thing either. If the business can get results with people who don’t require constant discussion of and attention to burnout, why wouldn’t they take that alternative? A manager can’t keep people engaged. A manager can create an environment where a person can choose to be engaged, but it’s not something the manager can conjure up. Sure it’s great…

It's hardly that black and white. If people are burnt out there is a reason for it, blaming them won't make the problem go away.

I've seen this in a few where there is certainly an environmental issue but it's easier to blame the individual. Removing them never helped and it just tears in a lot of places, especially the ones that was held up by the employee itself. Usually the employee is quite clear about these areas as well.

You have to remember that in these cases, the person feeling burnt out is taking on too much to keep the organization going. The issue isn't the person but the expectation and workload. I've seen employees try to make it work so they can have some semblance of work life balance.

With regards to your first comment there, some organizations don't realize the work that they are putting on to one person. I've heard comments like "why don't they just stop caring about the work?" for their own organization. You think founders and managers want people to stop caring about the work? No. They say it to put blame elsewhere and then know that the work will keep going like always. If it stops, they'll get pissed off and argue that the employee isn't doing their job.

It's great that you are looking out for yourself, but people being put in these situations shouldn't get blamed. They literally just care about the work, and usually they do amazingly. Without these people then I don't think most organizations would have gotten as far as they have.

I do agree with you though, that best is to make sure you don't put yourself in this kind of situation.

However, the most talented and driven people do care a lot about the work they do, they put a lot of pride in it. In this case it's important to put guardrails in place and I think many are doing this right now.

Re: Ask HN: How common is developer burnout? Have you ever been burnt out?

#89

Post by nickd2001 »

JohnBooty wrote: post #69

This makes me wonder if finding a low-key, sane culture is the key to sustainability in the industry, and avoiding burn out. They are exceedingly rare. The only way these can really exist is within a small bootstrapped (self-funded) venture or perhaps within an open source project that has both autonomy and outside funding. The paradoxical nature of commercial software development is that the entire fucking industry…

I agree with the above, but have you looked public sector? (e:g gov't , academia) low-key, sane culture can be found there. Simply because the org is not constantly chasing the next quarter's profit. Its not utopia, but in my experience (mostly private sector but a fair chunk of public sector) , public sector is so much better, less stress, and ironically, more productive because you can make long-term decisions, fix broken processes etc for the benefit of everyone. You won't get paid as much headline salary.. but you might get a better pension so needn't put as much aside, also, burning out can cause lost earnings anyway, so unless you're some kinda rock star with millionaire potential, it probably comes out in the wash .

Re: Ask HN: How common is developer burnout? Have you ever been burnt out?

#90

Post by nickd2001 »

I think this is a good Q and the right analysis. FAANG often = mega stress. It needs to be treated as a temporary step, boost your c.v / resume / LinkedIn, save significant £/$/whatever / pay off student debts etc then G.T.F.O. to somewhere sane. Sane places do indeed exist. Public sector I've found the best. There are other "unexciting" industries outside tech, which employ tech workers, which are actually OK. As a Brit that worked in the US, the biggest issue I see, is US workers simply don't get enough holidays and breaks to properly recharge, and while you can take breaks between job-hopping, that runs into issues with continuous healthcare coverage. I did have a US colleague who every year said "I'm going travelling for 3 months", his somewhat irritated employer said "well no guarantee you can come back", he said "fine", 3 months later, desperate employer (who of course is short-termist): "when can you start, production is on fire". But I dunno what he did about healthcare those 3 months. Maybe bought it privately?
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