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Ask HN: How many of you are self employed?

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Re: Ask HN: How many of you are self employed?

#81

Post by jacquesm »

davidpolberger wrote: post #80
jacquesm wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's some very impressive stamina and it must have been really hard at times.

Thanks, it certainly has been. After only a couple of years in the software industry proper, though, I felt I had seen all I needed to see. Crunch time. Arbitrary, ill-informed management decisions. Management who didn't believe in the product the team was passionate about. Products canceled through no fault of anyone working on it. Office politics and bickering. With my own business, I gain agency. If the product fa…

Yes, to all of that. But: the amount of control is directly proportional to how fat your wallet is, as it gets leaner you lose some of that agency so make sure you never even go close to depleting your reserves. That's a lesson I learned the hard way at some point and it causes me to be pretty cautious from a financial perspective. So far so good ;)

Re: Ask HN: How many of you are self employed?

#82

Post by V-2 »

poisonborz wrote: post #74
V-2 wrote: post #46

In Poland, where I'm from, it's pretty much the norm to be self-employed in Poland in the IT sector. I believe that around 50% of workers are technically contracted one-man companies, and this percentage is inversely correlated with the seniority level - the greater the earnings (and the sense of job security that goes along with expertise and experience), the greater the incentive. Going B2B makes a substantial diff…

My home country also regulates this scenario - one-man companies with ~single client - for businesses strongly. This is hidden employment. How would it be beneficial to anyone? - the subcontractor doesn't get any social security. Has to provide everything for himself from the private sector. And pensions (however meager). Theoretically he's free to have multiple clients or vary prices but I guess for most this is a p…

> How would it be beneficial to anyone?

Most programmers provide outsourcing services for companies from abroad (including outside of the EU).

Low taxes help them - and the umbrella companies AKA software houses - to remain competitive on the global market.

So even if they only pay a smaller fraction of their income to the budget, it's still better than if they didn't get the gig to begin with, because the contracts would go elsewhere.

> the subcontractor doesn't get any social security.

You do get healthcare insurance in Poland; no difference here. You're paying those fees just the same way.

You're only required to pay minimum pension charges though, so you have to take care of that yourself. (Objectively speaking, investing your savings in the pension system, of all places, probably isn't an optimal strategy anyway. At any rate, noone stops you from paying more than you're legally required, if you think that it is).

> the contracting company has more freedoms with getting/tossing employees, although loses a safety net of subcontractor suddenly leaving or changing prices.

It's obviously a trade-off. Being able to let people go without fuss if a customer downscales their budget (I was on the receiving end of this last year) is a competitive advantage.

> the government loses oversight of actual corporate structures

What do you mean by that?

Re: Ask HN: How many of you are self employed?

#83

Post by V-2 »

lifestyleguru wrote: post #78
lqet wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This would be quite risky where I am from, for both the freelancer and the employer. Being self employed, but only for a single customer, is false self-employment. If you get caught, your employer has to pay taxes and social security contributions retroactively for up to 4 years, and afaik both the employer and the freelancer are liable for the money owed to the tax office and social securities. If you are caught doi…

> Being self employed, but only for a single customer, is false self-employment This is exactly what happens in Poland and everyone involved feels very smart for cheating the system. That's also why software from Poland is such a tacky crap despite so many "talents". The software professionals have no leverage to push back, they only can walk away. The irresistibile benefit is that one can write off buying a car into…

> That's also why software from Poland is such a tacky crap despite so many "talents"

[citation needed]

How do you recognize "software from Poland" anyway?

Re: Ask HN: How many of you are self employed?

#84

Post by lorenzk »

mortallywounded wrote: post #39

I created a SaaS product (b2b) 7+ years ago. I work on it by myself with no team whatsoever. It generates around a million in profit in every year.

I want one of these so bad! Without spilling secrets: was it luck or a systematic process that gave you the idea for your company?

Re: Ask HN: How many of you are self employed?

#85

Post by DougN7 »

I’ve been self employed full time for almost 20 years, with one to two employees during that time. It’s a product company which I won’t link to because customers think we’re a big organization.

I worked nights and weekends for about 10 years on the products before they were good enough and selling enough that I could go full time. I’ve focused heavily on not having technical debt, and making the app as user friendly as possible to cut down on customer support burden.

Customer support work on holidays and vacations is required, but only for an hour or two. It’s been a pretty good gig.

Re: Ask HN: How many of you are self employed?

#86

Post by ringofchaos »

jacomoRodriguez wrote: post #49
ringofchaos wrote: post #12

Would living on investment income be considered as self employed. I quit my management job of Tech department of my company. Saved enough money to generate 80 percent of my last drawn salary from my investments. Now focusing on creating my own fintech web app, with generative ai integration. I like the feeling of working independently and years of corporate job had taken taken toll on mental health. Currently buildin…

so asking the big and obvious question: in what did yo invest?

I am based out of India 70% of my portfolio is in equity mutual funds, and the rest in safe instruments. The Indian stock markets have given good returns and my equity portfolio has been doing 17% CAGR (10% inflation-adjusted)

But I have planned for conservative returns of 12 percent overall

Re: Ask HN: How many of you are self employed?

#87

Post by mhitza »

I've been self-employed for the past 5 years, coincidentally because job recruitment processes were so ridiculous and time sinks at the time (spent ~6 months getting bounced around and ghosted), can't even imagine how things are nowadays.

In the past 3 years through my company (https://webesque.agency) with the aim of expanding in digital product delivery, though I haven't invested enough time and marketing on that front yet. Thus I continue to contract and consult on DevOps automation and Cloud related projects for the time being.

Re: Ask HN: How many of you are self employed?

#88

Post by lifestyleguru »

V-2 wrote: post #83
lifestyleguru wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Being self employed, but only for a single customer, is false self-employment This is exactly what happens in Poland and everyone involved feels very smart for cheating the system. That's also why software from Poland is such a tacky crap despite so many "talents". The software professionals have no leverage to push back, they only can walk away. The irresistibile benefit is that one can write off buying a car into…

> That's also why software from Poland is such a tacky crap despite so many "talents" [citation needed] How do you recognize "software from Poland" anyway?

> How do you recognize "software from Poland" anyway?

Whatever is created in all these nearshoring and outsourcing centers in Warsaw, Kraków, and Wrocław. Currently mostly Azure, SAP, business Java and Angular.

Re: Ask HN: How many of you are self employed?

#89

Post by V-2 »

jacquesm wrote: post #63
V-2 wrote: post #46

In Poland, where I'm from, it's pretty much the norm to be self-employed in Poland in the IT sector. I believe that around 50% of workers are technically contracted one-man companies, and this percentage is inversely correlated with the seniority level - the greater the earnings (and the sense of job security that goes along with expertise and experience), the greater the incentive. Going B2B makes a substantial diff…

That's for tax reasons only though, technically it is just another form of long term employment. As soon as you have multiple customers that you send invoices to with some regularity and you have autonomy would you pass the 'self employed' test in other countries. If you refer to them as your client and you only have one then you're technically an employee, if you refer to your contact at your client as 'your boss' t…

I can't see why a company couldn't have one long-term customer. It's not unusual eg. in the building sector (where large construction projects, not unlike software projects, can take years to complete).

Another common example is MDs - quite a lot of private doctor's offices are contracted by the National Health Fund, basically providing their services for the public healthcare that way.

Clearly having multiple customers isn't a reasonable requirement for a small company. Software engineering isn't like private residential plumbing - "sink drain unclogged, next please!" :)

> good luck if your client decides they no longer need your services, suddenly you find out what the downside of being self employed is.

That goes without saying, and the same obviously applies if you're running a "regular" company, with employees, like a restaurant or whatever.

The risk is arguably even greater, as you will usually pile up some financial obligations (such as credits) and other commodities limiting your financial fluidity (remember Covid? Restaurant owners do).

By the way, you can insure yourself against loss of income. Many insurance companies offer this service.

Re: Ask HN: How many of you are self employed?

#90

Post by V-2 »

lifestyleguru wrote: post #88
V-2 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's also why software from Poland is such a tacky crap despite so many "talents" [citation needed] How do you recognize "software from Poland" anyway?

> How do you recognize "software from Poland" anyway? Whatever is created in all these nearshoring and outsourcing centers in Warsaw, Kraków, and Wrocław. Currently mostly Azure, SAP, business Java and Angular.

Yeah, but how do you know which application was and which wasn't? Apart from some big customers, it usually isn't public knowledge. Eg. my previous project was a banking app for a rich Middle Eastern country. There's no "acknowledgements" section in the app.

My original question still stands - by what metrics do you regard "software from Poland" as "tacky crap"? I'm not being belligerent about it, but somewhat curious, sure.

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