Ask HN: Why is home property information so public? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Why is home property information so public?

#81

Post by cykros » Mon, Sep 04, 2023, 11:22 AM UTC

beebmam wrote: post #23

benlivengood wrote: post #19

Why wouldn't ownership be public? See the recent uproar[0] over the semi-anonymous purchase of land near Travis AFB. This is a clear case where market inefficiency is bad; individual sellers need to know when markets are changing and a single entity is willing to pay above assumed market rates for a large contiguous region. Anyone in favor of strong markets should favor full transparency of real estate ownership and…

Why should real estate have MORE stringent requirements on ownership disclosure than stock ownership?

Significant stock ownership is pretty public through 8k forms. The SEC doesn't require reporting every trade of a few million dollars because it generally doesn't make a difference anyway. And you CAN access time and sales data in most brokerage platforms to see the size of many of those trades. The big exception there being those done on dark pools.

And while perhaps you could argue against dark pools, most would agree that illiquidity is a bad thing in markets. Dark pools do a good job of addressing this allowing for large positions to be massaged into a market they'd otherwise disrupt fairly heavily.

Re: Ask HN: Why is home property information so public?

#82

Post by cykros » Mon, Sep 04, 2023, 11:32 AM UTC

bartchamdo wrote: post #53

blatzguzzler wrote: post #37

Lawyer here. Land ownership has to be public because the only way to establish your right to property is the publicly recorded and government maintained "chain of title": who you are, who you got it from, who they got it from, etc., going back to the original survey of your state (or at least 50 years, where I am). Otherwise it would be chaos with everyone waiving around 100-year-old bogus deeds claiming the right to…

I disagree, why can’t land ownership be in sealed documents much like court documents can be sealed? It’s still registered as before but the documents are available to just anyone anytime without reason and they stay out of the clutches of the sleazy data dealers and such that get my address this way and send me junk and harass me in other ways. Obfuscation past this would still be possible as you said but the defaul…

If your tree falls on my house, I need to know who to sue for damages. If your failure to adequately look after drainage causes flood conditions, same. Insert any number of ways your property could cause damage to the person or property of another and you have a valid reason for why its ownership information needs to be public.

Re: Ask HN: Why is home property information so public?

#83

Post by cykros » Mon, Sep 04, 2023, 11:34 AM UTC

crtified wrote: post #47

New Zealand recently had a minor controversy, where Owner (names) public datasets were used by third parties to create a searchable "What (else) Does My Landlord Own?" -style website, riding on a current of anti-rich-landlord sentiment in the midst of that countrys rising property price issues. That happening raised discussion similar to this, and sparked the governments land data department to investigate the suitab…

And you've hit the nail on the head with that last sentence. Want a modicum of privacy? Set up a trust. The trust's ownership will be out there, but your involvement will not.

You'll probably still get all the junk mail though. It'll just be more obviously bogus.

Re: Ask HN: Why is home property information so public?

#84

Post by snapplebobapple » Mon, Sep 04, 2023, 4:05 PM UTC

hgs3 wrote: post #74

snapplebobapple wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are very wrong on your analysis of the travis afb land purchase. You would be correct if someone could easily get into their entire land position they need for their project all at once but it never happens that way, you are always legging into positions and run the risk of massive extortion if what you are doing is known because holdouts can capture excess payouts due to their monopoly power. Secrecy is required…

> holdouts can capture excess payouts Isn't that capitalism working as intended? If you have a desirable asset then why shouldn't you charge more for it?

No, that is exercising market power and it causes dead weight loss (basically the worst thing that can happen in economics). When you have a project that needs x amount of land the project is a go as long as the cost of everything is less than the present value of the expected profits. The spread between the cost and the expected payout should be whittled away to a small number in an efficient market. In an inefficient market with market power that is whittled away to potentially zero by holdouts abusing their position to get extra payout far in advance of the value of their land. The efficient market results in lower end costs and more stuff for us all, which is pretty much always a benefit to society. The inefficient market costs us output and makes us all worse off.

Since you are legging into the real estate the secrecy pretty much always gets you closer to the efficient outcome rather then transparency because the efficient outcome has the land purchased at the current value, not the value based on market power abuse from knowing what the future private development plan for the land is.

Re: Ask HN: Why is home property information so public?

#85

Post by philipwhiuk » Mon, Sep 04, 2023, 6:18 PM UTC

vlovich123 wrote: post #75

Tagbert wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the significant harm that is being forced on vast numbers by open records? I could see harm to a small number of people but for the true “vast” number, there is no impact.

The amount of spam and scam that starts heading your way when you purchase a house is insane.

Maybe we should fix that rather than the disclosures?

Re: Ask HN: Why is home property information so public?

#86

Post by philipwhiuk » Mon, Sep 04, 2023, 6:18 PM UTC

figassis wrote: post #80

StopHammoTime wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because ultimately, the reason could be made up. ANYONE could say they want to purchase the property and make an enquiry anyway. People can always lie or come up with fantastical stories. The problem is the baby is being thrown out with the bath water. The solution is good, the modern pillaging of the data is not.

The government should have no responsibility in facilitating land deals. If you want to buy land, buy it from the markets, and if the owner has not listed it, then likely they don’t want to sell it. And if you really want to buy it and think maybe if I just show them how much I’m willing to pay for it they’d sell, but they still haven’t listed it and you don’t know anyone that knows the owner, either tough luck or hi…

"from the markets"

How do you know the person you are buying it from actually owns it.

Re: Ask HN: Why is home property information so public?

#87

Post by hgs3 » Mon, Sep 04, 2023, 6:49 PM UTC

snapplebobapple wrote: post #84

hgs3 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> holdouts can capture excess payouts Isn't that capitalism working as intended? If you have a desirable asset then why shouldn't you charge more for it?

No, that is exercising market power and it causes dead weight loss (basically the worst thing that can happen in economics). When you have a project that needs x amount of land the project is a go as long as the cost of everything is less than the present value of the expected profits. The spread between the cost and the expected payout should be whittled away to a small number in an efficient market. In an inefficie…

The buyer is the one giving the market power to the seller. If the buyer did not have interest in the land and did not buy the surrounding land, then the seller would not have power. It is not the sellers fault if the buyers project fails because they couldn't budget for the "inefficient market" they themselves created. Calling this "abuse" is sour grapes.

Re: Ask HN: Why is home property information so public?

#88

Post by benlivengood » Mon, Sep 04, 2023, 7:02 PM UTC

snapplebobapple wrote: post #84

hgs3 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> holdouts can capture excess payouts Isn't that capitalism working as intended? If you have a desirable asset then why shouldn't you charge more for it?

No, that is exercising market power and it causes dead weight loss (basically the worst thing that can happen in economics). When you have a project that needs x amount of land the project is a go as long as the cost of everything is less than the present value of the expected profits. The spread between the cost and the expected payout should be whittled away to a small number in an efficient market. In an inefficie…

The simple answer is that acquiring large tracts of land isn't tractable in established areas. It requires forceful taking of some parcels or extravagant expense. Eminent domain allows the government to accomplish infrastructure projects at a (somewhat) reasonable cost but there's no expectation that private entities can achieve the same thing.

Re: Ask HN: Why is home property information so public?

#89

Post by figassis » Mon, Sep 04, 2023, 7:45 PM UTC

philipwhiuk wrote: post #86

figassis wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The government should have no responsibility in facilitating land deals. If you want to buy land, buy it from the markets, and if the owner has not listed it, then likely they don’t want to sell it. And if you really want to buy it and think maybe if I just show them how much I’m willing to pay for it they’d sell, but they still haven’t listed it and you don’t know anyone that knows the owner, either tough luck or hi…

"from the markets" How do you know the person you are buying it from actually owns it.

This is a solved problem. How to you buy a car from someone?

Re: Ask HN: Why is home property information so public?

#90

Post by Spooky23 » Mon, Sep 04, 2023, 11:08 PM UTC

You need a public ledger of land ownership, it’s a public benefit.

Otherwise, title and ownership of land always be an open question. How do you know some lienholder doesn’t have title to property without a public register?