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Ask HN: How can a junior dev maximize their income?

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Re: Ask HN: How can a junior dev maximize their income?

#81
post #22
post #7

I know this question is situated around the tech, but the real answer is to leave every couple of years. There is always more money to be made, and the more experience you have the easier it is to get it. I'm not saying this is what somebody should do, but if you're only indexing for income, then it's the only answer IMO.

To a point. People who move around too much will not get the job if there's a comparable candidate that has stayed around longer at previous jobs.

If that is the case, then the job is not one that our hypothetical job hopper wants, so it all works out.

Re: Ask HN: How can a junior dev maximize their income?

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s the issue of building virtue and good character, which I suspect are ancient and long obsoleted concepts. This pragmatism is understandable, but I don’t think it’s a nice way to live. Of course to each its own.

You can build virtue and good character and still manage your career in a way that puts yourself and your family first. I'm not buying that the only way to build character is to work for below market rate so someone else can make money and then forget you when it's not convenient any longer. Asymmetric loyalty is a dead end. Deriving your virtue and character from your job is also a fools errand and a myth that is pe…

I’m afraid dumping your partners whenever is most convenient for you and your family, while understandable because they will do the same to you, is not what I understand to be virtuous.

You may be spiteful, and perhaps rightfully so, against the powers that be, but it is ultimately futile. Who is in power is not up to us, but our response to it is.

Not preaching to you, you may be the most virtuous being in existence. Just mumbling in the wind here.

Re: Ask HN: How can a junior dev maximize their income?

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can build virtue and good character and still manage your career in a way that puts yourself and your family first. I'm not buying that the only way to build character is to work for below market rate so someone else can make money and then forget you when it's not convenient any longer. Asymmetric loyalty is a dead end. Deriving your virtue and character from your job is also a fools errand and a myth that is pe…

I’m afraid dumping your partners whenever is most convenient for you and your family, while understandable because they will do the same to you, is not what I understand to be virtuous. You may be spiteful, and perhaps rightfully so, against the powers that be, but it is ultimately futile. Who is in power is not up to us, but our response to it is. Not preaching to you, you may be the most virtuous being in existence…

An employer is not a partner.

If you are a partner in a business, then walking away is not so easy and probably a lot less desirable (and still, "junior partner" is sometimes a trap).

Most people who work for businesses are "human resources", so let's treat employers as "income providers" and nothing more.

Re: Ask HN: How can a junior dev maximize their income?

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m afraid dumping your partners whenever is most convenient for you and your family, while understandable because they will do the same to you, is not what I understand to be virtuous. You may be spiteful, and perhaps rightfully so, against the powers that be, but it is ultimately futile. Who is in power is not up to us, but our response to it is. Not preaching to you, you may be the most virtuous being in existence…

An employer is not a partner . If you are a partner in a business, then walking away is not so easy and probably a lot less desirable (and still, "junior partner" is sometimes a trap). Most people who work for businesses are "human resources", so let's treat employers as "income providers" and nothing more.

You're of course right, it's not the proper word. In a broad sense you are both actively working on, let's hope, a shared vision and you need eachother. I'm not interested in the power symmetry of the relation in this case although it's of course part of the situation.

> let's treat employers as "income providers" and nothing more.

It's fine that you and many of you consider this to be an agreeable way to live. I'm just saying that it's not the only way and in my opinion not a particular desireable one.

Minority opinion here, but I am entertaining the vague and quite dangerous notion that with a bit of compromise from both sides we can have our cake and eat it too. The dangerous part might consist in accepting we are not all born for great works and some humility and acceptance might not actually be such a bad thing. Of course, in moderation as with all things, but I don't think modern people are in any danger of being too humble anytime soon.

I wouldn't be too hasty to dismiss such notions as "loyalty", because "trust" is quite close and it might just be a fundamental driver of human civilization.

Re: Ask HN: How can a junior dev maximize their income?

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An employer is not a partner . If you are a partner in a business, then walking away is not so easy and probably a lot less desirable (and still, "junior partner" is sometimes a trap). Most people who work for businesses are "human resources", so let's treat employers as "income providers" and nothing more.

You're of course right, it's not the proper word. In a broad sense you are both actively working on, let's hope, a shared vision and you need eachother. I'm not interested in the power symmetry of the relation in this case although it's of course part of the situation. > let's treat employers as "income providers" and nothing more. It's fine that you and many of you consider this to be an agreeable way to live. I'm j…

But the power imbalance is the whole problem. Unfortunately it seems to be human nature that those who seek and gain power are compelled to exercise it to benefit themselves, to the detriment of others.

What sort of compromise are you thinking of? I get the impression that workers have done a lot of compromising (involuntarily) in the past decade or two and bosses have not.

The idea of a co-operative has always been appealing to me, but having encountered and worked with a lot of real live humans my idealism regarding that is pretty much shattered and in practice I suspect it would be very frustrating and fairly short-lived.

Personally I ended up as a business myself, I have clients rather than employers. It's far from perfect, but it feels more honest and 'real' somehow.

Re: Ask HN: How can a junior dev maximize their income?

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're of course right, it's not the proper word. In a broad sense you are both actively working on, let's hope, a shared vision and you need eachother. I'm not interested in the power symmetry of the relation in this case although it's of course part of the situation. > let's treat employers as "income providers" and nothing more. It's fine that you and many of you consider this to be an agreeable way to live. I'm j…

But the power imbalance is the whole problem. Unfortunately it seems to be human nature that those who seek and gain power are compelled to exercise it to benefit themselves, to the detriment of others. What sort of compromise are you thinking of? I get the impression that workers have done a lot of compromising (involuntarily) in the past decade or two and bosses have not. The idea of a co-operative has always been…

I understand and I too have clients. This feels completely different indeed, but that is exactly why I came to think of these things: the power structure is not fundamentally different. If anything, it’s more volatile and I need to watch what I am doing all the time. I can be dumped at a moment’s notice and to be honest, I like it that way because that works both ways. (My wife thinks differently about these matters.)

Thing is, without sounding too negative, because my team mates are all good people, but I have seen some negativity in them along these lines that in my opinion is uncalled for. Without proper care it is easy to fall into a black and white, purely transactional relationship with your employer. To be completely honest, I myself have fallen for it quite some time and it made me deeply unhappy.

I speak to the “bosses” perhaps on a different level now and it’s not like they are living to grind their staff into dust. There is a complexity to their job as well and it would perhaps be enlightening to keep that in mind even as an “employee”.

Perhaps my idea of compromise is that you, as an employee, need to come to terms that you might not be perfect and that there is a lot you do not understand, but that is OK. Try to do a good job and don’t point fingers (“they started!”). Try to imagine how your “boss” feels. We are all humans trying to do an adequate job, barring some pathological types. Not to make your boss happy, but yourself.

But I am rambling too long now. I of course need to add here that exercising wisdom is crucial: don’t let yourself be abused. Everything depends on the circumstances and they are always complex.

Edit: btw I work with small businesses and those are a completely different game than, say, Adobe. I still think the general point about trying to do good without falling into pure transactionalism is helpful.

Re: Ask HN: How can a junior dev maximize their income?

#87
post #7

I know this question is situated around the tech, but the real answer is to leave every couple of years. There is always more money to be made, and the more experience you have the easier it is to get it. I'm not saying this is what somebody should do, but if you're only indexing for income, then it's the only answer IMO.

I would say this is right for the first 2-4 jobs but then I would start looking for really promising startups with equity and stay until vested (normally 4 years) unless it's clear the startup is not doing well or you see another startup you just cannot miss. Having said that in my actual career I missed out on a big equity payday due to the dot com bust and my best year I earned about 200% of my base salary + benefits due to bonuses. Later in my career 35-60 I did better maxing out 401K, and stock option plans and just accumulating IRA money. I wish I had converted my traditional IRAs to Roth IRAs during the dot com bust when I was self employed running my own business and making very little.

Re: Ask HN: How can a junior dev maximize their income?

#88
post #43
post #7

I know this question is situated around the tech, but the real answer is to leave every couple of years. There is always more money to be made, and the more experience you have the easier it is to get it. I'm not saying this is what somebody should do, but if you're only indexing for income, then it's the only answer IMO.

I spent my 20s following this advice, but now in my 30s I am starting to question it. When I look up the org chart, the people higher up have been at the company 5+ years. Moving into the higher roles requires the right opportunity, which often takes time to find. Those "right opportunities" are rarely given to people new to the company and are often used to retain existing high performers. Certainly if you're stuck…

You are talking about two different goals. Yes, stay if you want to climb the corporate ladder but if you want to maximize income then one must jump ship. Some people are just not cut out for the corporate route so moving is good advice. These are the people that just transition to starting their own companies in their 30s/40s or consulting.

Re: Ask HN: How can a junior dev maximize their income?

#90
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can price yourself out of the market with this strategy. Because every overpaying technology normalizes over time. Someone who is willing to pay more at this point in time, will always find someone cheaper in time next few years.

You can always lower your price back to market. Pricing yourself out means you've spent the last N years getting paid top dollar. I'll take it.

In reality, you cannot lower your price. You have mortagages that assume that you will be paid at x amount every month. You life is planned around the money you make. If you take a pay cut, it does impact yuor life.
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